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The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

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Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#481

Post by Beldin »

xyzelement wrote: post #283
ffssffss wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the bigger problem here - climate change. We cannot drive in ICE cars forever if we want our environment to remain livable. Your car-based lifestyle might be fine for you, right now, but it's still unsustainable and contributing to a worse world for your kids and their kids. If EVs aren't going to to be a drop in solution, then we really do need to talk about reorganizing society away from cars…

I think I am less stressed about this than you are. I remember someone ranting at me in the 90s about peak oil and how our kids will live in the stone ages because we'll run out (their thesis of course was that ppl shouldn't have kids) Science evolves as does technology, and inevitably both factors will change over the coming decades. To base your life around the worst case predictions of models (where the disaster m…

> 2 miles to drop our kid at school

In a bike-friendly country, you'd do that by bike, not by car.

Of course, if your whole world is built around owning and using a car, then doing this by bike becomes dangerous and doing this by car becomes less insane. Then you find our you're dedicating a very large portion of the ground to those machines you use twice a day for 10 minutes - making them unfit for other purposes the remaining 23 hours and 40 minutes.

I really like driving - but I really like the outside to be fit for other things than driving as well. American suburbia falls way too far short of that.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#482

Post by justinclift »

cesarb wrote: post #192
kzrdude wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, is 220V (or 230V) more than twice as fast/twice as good as 110V? The discussion here makes it sound like it. All I know is that you'll need higher amperage with lower voltage, but it can compensate proportionally. I guess heat losses and other problems are significant, if it's a problem at 110V?

> All I know is that you'll need higher amperage with lower voltage, but it can compensate proportionally. This discussion is assuming that the amperage is the same. The common "default" AC socket in the USA is AFAIK the NEMA 5-15, which is a 15A socket; the common "default" AC socket in other countries is AFAIK usually either 16A, 15A, or 10A, so at most you'd have one extra ampere. Of course, if you're adding a ded…

Any idea how common or feasible it would be in the US to get ~400v 3 phase power to the garage?

Here in Australia it's possible, though not very common. ~400v is useful for some larger sized machinery.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#483

Post by mdp2021 »

mynameisvlad wrote: post #355
bigcloud1299 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guarantee that you don’t own a all Electric V. I own 2018 model S and I concur with the Op of this thread that’s the case. Charging is a huge pain in cold weather. I have insulated my garage doors and am able to keep the temp at around 45 in cold winters ( I am in Redmond).

A 240V charger, as parent commenter said, more than makes up for whatever losses are inherent in heating the car and battery. I have an uncovered space and it’s fine . Yeah, the battery sucks in the cold, and it takes longer to charge, but realistically it’s not like you need to use your car 24/7. Leaving it for a few hours overnight charges it to full, and you can schedule defrosting or do it from the app so the car…

> it’s not like you need

But you need it anytime you need it - some rank reliability very highly, at "requirement" level.

> from the app

And this already is a loud warning bell.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#484

Post by Too »

kzrdude wrote: post #179
cwalv wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave in your kitchen in the mid 90's.

I'm curious, is 220V (or 230V) more than twice as fast/twice as good as 110V? The discussion here makes it sound like it. All I know is that you'll need higher amperage with lower voltage, but it can compensate proportionally. I guess heat losses and other problems are significant, if it's a problem at 110V?

I don’t know about US but here in Northern Europe the utility outlets we use for stoves and such are not just higher voltage but also distributed over 3 phases rather than just one. This translates into sqrt(3)=1.7 times more of the cable can be used. For a 3x16A outlet you get 400V x 16A x 1.7 = 10kW.

Compared to a normal 220V 10A outlet where your max is 2kW.

Higher voltage also means you get more power for less current, less heat loss in the cables.

If you have an electric car, the example above should explain why you want to get a proper charger with proper wiring installed. Don’t use the ones which plug straight into a shuko.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#485

Post by xyzelement »

Beldin wrote: post #481
xyzelement wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I am less stressed about this than you are. I remember someone ranting at me in the 90s about peak oil and how our kids will live in the stone ages because we'll run out (their thesis of course was that ppl shouldn't have kids) Science evolves as does technology, and inevitably both factors will change over the coming decades. To base your life around the worst case predictions of models (where the disaster m…

> 2 miles to drop our kid at school In a bike-friendly country, you'd do that by bike, not by car. Of course, if your whole world is built around owning and using a car, then doing this by bike becomes dangerous and doing this by car becomes less insane. Then you find our you're dedicating a very large portion of the ground to those machines you use twice a day for 10 minutes - making them unfit for other purposes th…

I'm the person you're responding to. I drop my kid off by bike when it's warm. 14 min door to door. And drive other times. Solve my suburb :)

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#486

Post by javajosh »

xyzelement wrote: post #270
xyst wrote: post #207

Yet another reason why EVs won’t save us from the inefficiencies of car centric transportation. Americans, can we stop this failed experiment and let’s (re)build our cities with public transportation and alternative forms of transportation (ie, biking, walking, micro-mobility). Return the spaces occupied by parking lots, parking garages and use that space to house people. End these implied subsidies on “car housing”.…

Counterpoint: moved to the burbs after 40 years of city life (Europe and NYC) and I absolutely love it. Cars work absolutely great and with the decreased need to be physically in the office, suburban life is better and more convenient than ever. I feel like every post that shits on the suburbs should include how many kids do you have, for transparency. No family or kids, of course the city is better for you .

Well, you've got to do the experiment. Move to a major European city center, with kids, without a car, and see how you like it. I tried this in Berlin, and it was quite good! Getting around on the U-Bahn with kids is so nice. You get to hang out with your kids as you travel! Having a free, walkable Kita (daycare/school) is incredible. Being able to walk to useful things like groceries, or a coffee shop, was great. Also, in Berlin they have some of the best playgrounds, and lots of them! Plus on "going out nights" you can get anywhere and back and never worry about finding a designated driver.

But yeah, would I try this in downtown LA? No, never. (Although you could argue that LA is weird because it's neighborhoods are like suburbs. Would I try this in k-town? No. You need a car, for everything.) Of course I have to admit that there is some circularity with the LA situation - no-one wants to live in the city center, so only the destitute live there, which makes it less desirable. In many places in the world, this situation doesn't apply. Would I try it in Manhattan? Maybe.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#487

Post by cwalv »

thayne wrote: post #360
cwalv wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you know what I don't do? Freeze my ass off standing in a gas station in subzero temperatures and howling winds! Not missing that at all. Right! And I suspect by 2035, not having a 220v outlet in the garage will be like not having a microwave in your kitchen in the mid 90's.

In 2035 I will most likely be living in the same home I am now, and putting a 220v outlet in my garage is a lot more expensive than buying a microwave.

I suspect it will get cheaper, esp for the common case where you don't need to upgrade the service to your home, and there's already a panel/subpanel present. The cost is mostly labor, and in that case it can be installed in a couple hours or less. Also, 30% of the cost is already subsidized as part of the IRA. As EV prices become more competitive, such that having the outlet/charger installed in their garage is an actual burden for the ppl buying EVs, I wouldn't be surprised to see this subsidy increase

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#488

Post by isityouyesitsme »

defrost wrote: post #467
isityouyesitsme wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, I misread (or more accurately didn't read) user names. Apologies for that. But no, what I said was not false. I said that I suspect there are other locations in the world where this is true (meaning northern US isn't the only one), and the reply was that there are locations where it isn't true (Australia).

As often happens what we say doesn't always clearly convey what we mean to others, we've perhaps both fallen foul from this. A few points of note; * like or not Australia as a country is an interesting case study wrt "how do other countries fare?" .. we have charging capabilities .. but hellish distances between towns outside of cities. On the plus side the vast bulk of the population is urban | near urban .. so it's…

I have zero problems with how Australia plans to meet its transportation needs. I do not live there.

In the US, I also do not care much about whether cars are EV or not (my only actual hangup about EV as a technology is the raw material sourcing. It is perhaps as immoral as how we obtain oil, and we do not have a story on what to do with the waste). I may even buy one in a couple years (I run all my cars to the point where they need constant repair, and only buy used cars, so the average age of my cars when they are retired is about 12 years). But that is different than the fantasy that EV as a primary form of personal transportation will work for the vast majority of the northern US.

I think the opposite of the intended effect will actually happen. We are forcing a mandate without a means for it to work.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#489

Post by Dylan16807 »

nottorp wrote: post #414
tomjakubowski wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PHEVs really seem like the best of both worlds. What's the downside?

Costs. Complexity. You have a large battery, a gasoline engine with a transmission and 2+ electric engines in a PHEV. And they all need maintenance in the long run. This will be hopefully mitigated when all PHEVs only run the gas engine as a generator and get rid of the transmission, but I don't think we're there yet.

> This will be hopefully mitigated when all PHEVs only run the gas engine as a generator and get rid of the transmission, but I don't think we're there yet.

If it's cheaper then they'll do it.

More generally, you can remove a chunk of the transmission in a hybrid and use a simpler engine even if it's not a generator. The complexity isn't a big deal. And the moderate cost gets offset by significant fuel savings.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#490

Post by Dylan16807 »

Gordonjcp wrote: post #428
Dylan16807 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only because they're idiots. Even if we ignore the "heard bad advice" versus "idiot" issue, that's still untrue because there are other reasons besides what's best for the machine. Maybe they aren't in the car, and they're warming it up to be comfortable. Maybe there is ice on the car they need to melt.

Use deicing spray to get the ice off the car. If it's too cold for you in the car, then just sack up and get on with it. You're not going to come to any harm being a wee bit cold for a couple of minutes, and the heater will actually start working quicker if you drive. If the weather is as cold as it gets here in Scotland in winter, the car will *never* warm up sitting idling.

So I'm an idiot if I avoid things that are unpleasant but won't harm me? And again, speed doesn't matter if I'm not in the car.

Or I'm an idiot if I would rather idle than pour alcohol on my windshield?

> If the weather is as cold as it gets here in Scotland in winter, the car will never warm up sitting idling.

Okay, then that person is an idiot, but it doesn't extend to the people actually warming up their car.

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