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The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

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Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#271

Post by dgacmu »

eldaisfish wrote: post #140
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cold air is denser. Pushing it out of the way saps more energy and drops the effective work done. You're oblivious to it because a motor vehicle has so much available power on tap. It is very noticeable on a bicycle at high speeds. Conversely. Sailboats get more efficient in cold temperatures because more energy is imparted on the sail.

this is the textbook definition of confidently incorrect. Winter fuel efficiency is worse because of a winter fuel mix, not because of air density.

And if you don't pump up your tires to compensate, the lower pressure from cold temps will increase your rolling resistance. Not a 40% drop but enough to notice if you're tracking mpg.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#272

Post by encryptluks2 »

FatActor wrote: post #258

Mass-produced consumer EVs are a relatively new tech and they will have problems for another few decades and get better because technology gets better over time (see: the past 1000 years). And I'm not a fanboy by ANY stretch of the imagination (I utterly loathe the CEO of Tesla.) You can't judge today what an EV will be like in 50 years the same way you couldn't judge what would happen from the first Model T (1908) t…

If companies and government doesn't want people making judgments based on their experiences then they shouldn't overhype the vehicles and charge such high premiums unless they are going to be realistic that people are essentially spending 40k or more to beta test a city commuter car.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#273

Post by rtkwe »

john-radio wrote: post #237
pandaman wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US "220V" refers to a high current outlet normally, in a country where household outlets are 220V, you still need a high current outlet and, for safety reasons, most outlets are not high current, just like in the US.

Wait, this is terribly confusing. Why would "220 volts" not refer to a completely objective measurement of current?

The voltage and current combined is the actually important number which is the total wattage available on that circuit. The US standard 220/240V outlet will provide ~30A of current usually while a UK outlet usually has a 13A fuse in the plug matching the circuit's rough availability.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#274

Post by chii »

FatActor wrote: post #258

Mass-produced consumer EVs are a relatively new tech and they will have problems for another few decades and get better because technology gets better over time (see: the past 1000 years). And I'm not a fanboy by ANY stretch of the imagination (I utterly loathe the CEO of Tesla.) You can't judge today what an EV will be like in 50 years the same way you couldn't judge what would happen from the first Model T (1908) t…

> technology gets better over time (see: the past 1000 years)

> can't judge today what an EV will be like in 50 years

i can't wait for 50 yrs to have EV be better than ICE cars. If they aren't better _today_, i cannot switch. I would assume the majority of consumers have this attitude.

Therefore, in order to transition to EVs for environmental reasons, you either force consumers to have a lesser product by legislation, or improve EVs so that they are the natural choice to purchase.

I don't believe consumers would be willing to suck up a legislated rule that forces them to consume an inferior product, and so they would choose not to elect someone that stand for such.

Therefore, the only realistic way is to have EVs be _better_ than ICE. I think they are on the cusp today though, and soon will surpass ICE.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#275

Post by krater23 »

rtkwe wrote: post #62
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean by that metric, it's hard to figure out how to install a dryer in your house too. It's the same circuitry.

With the difference that the dryer connections are usually installed when the house is built so there's easy access to run the wires to and from the breaker box. Installing them afterwards is more expensive and complicated to do because of the limited access. It's also not something you can expect to find anywhere other than at another EV owner's place. Admittedly over time that will become less of an issue but for n…

I'm an opponent of EV, but bring a cable from power input to garage is really not a big problem. Done that for many things over the last 20 years, including network cabling for internet access.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#276

Post by krater23 »

hristov wrote: post #74
GalenErso wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meanwhile, with an ICE car, you don't need to worry about having a garage, nevermind a heated one; the right charger, warming a pack, losing fuel overnight, or taking three hours to fully charge. I can pull up to any gas station and fill my tank in 2 minutes. And my gas isn't magically evaporating if it's a little chilly. The 30 different requirements for EVs to work in cold weather are too complex and prohibitively…

With an ICE car, if you park regularly in very cold weather, your car can fail randomly for an obscure reason and it can take a long time to figure it out or you will need a trip to the mechanic. Or you may need a massive and expensive repair. Remember that a lot of people have to spend 10-15 minutes warming up their cars before they drive them in cold weather. I do not want to go into details, better car mechanics t…

That are only problems when you live in russia or maybee canada.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#277

Post by maxerickson »

sokoloff wrote: post #261
maxerickson wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's gonna make some difference, but air resistance goes with square of speed and the change in density due to temperature isn't that large.

It’s about -3% change in drag force per +10°C change in temp.

Which is like the same as 60 mph vs 59 mph.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#278

Post by coderenegade »

d_watt wrote: post #19

Anecdotally last winter, had a Model Y up in maine for a trip home. I arrived at a backwoods house with ~60 miles left. It was around 10 farenheit the next day when I hooked up a 110 volt line to the car. Over the next 30 minutes the mileage dropped to 55 as it took more energy to heat the battery than the line could deliver. I unhooked it and planned to drive 20 miles to the nearest charger, but after 1 mile of trav…

This is also why claims of round trip energy efficiency for BEVs need a disclaimer. You need to put energy in to heat the battery, so under certain conditions, your roundtrip efficiency can hit 0%; i.e. all input energy going towards heating the battery, and none going towards charging the vehicle.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#279

Post by ffssffss »

xyzelement wrote: post #270
xyst wrote: post #207

Yet another reason why EVs won’t save us from the inefficiencies of car centric transportation. Americans, can we stop this failed experiment and let’s (re)build our cities with public transportation and alternative forms of transportation (ie, biking, walking, micro-mobility). Return the spaces occupied by parking lots, parking garages and use that space to house people. End these implied subsidies on “car housing”.…

Counterpoint: moved to the burbs after 40 years of city life (Europe and NYC) and I absolutely love it. Cars work absolutely great and with the decreased need to be physically in the office, suburban life is better and more convenient than ever. I feel like every post that shits on the suburbs should include how many kids do you have, for transparency. No family or kids, of course the city is better for you .

I think you're missing the bigger problem here - climate change. We cannot drive in ICE cars forever if we want our environment to remain livable. Your car-based lifestyle might be fine for you, right now, but it's still unsustainable and contributing to a worse world for your kids and their kids. If EVs aren't going to to be a drop in solution, then we really do need to talk about reorganizing society away from cars, so that we can have a society at all in the future.

The only other option is some kind of technological silver bullet for carbon capture that manages to arrive in time.

Personally I'm fairly pessimistic about this problem. I don't see a political path to widespread mass transit in the US, and I don't know how you remove the incentive that developing economies have to pollute. It feels like a prisoners' dilemma.

Re: The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

#280

Post by rtkwe »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #245
Scoundreller wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There’s no particular reason that a dryer and washer have to go in the same room Uhhhh convenience? People prefer them right next to each other so that clothes washing isn’t a long journey. At least that’s why the plumbing and electrical/gas connections are usually built close to each other.

Serious question, do Americans use clotheslines? Our dryer is only really used for towels/sheets in wet weather. The rotary clothesline [0] was standard in Australia and New Zealand for decades, although with the move to smaller sections, people tend to install compact linear lines instead. [0]: https://99percentinvisible.org/article/hills-hoist-iconic-ro...

Generally no. Line drying has a connotation of poverty in the US and many cities have ordinances like this that make it tough to do. Also houses being generally larger and detached in the US we have an easier time installing them compared to row houses in Europe. They're also just built more recently so they have accommodations for them built in already.

"No person shall place or allow to remain exposed to the elements laundry, clothing, rags, or other cloth items hung or stored on a front porch or front or other street yard of a dwelling."

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