NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#481

Post by busymom0 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

bart_spoon wrote: post #325

SirensOfTitan wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I clearly mentioned, this vaccine is not FDA approved. We have no idea of the long term effects. I find it fairly reasonable to not want to be a test subject.

FDA approval for Pfizer is expected in a matter of weeks.

Israel is reporting the vaccine efficacy goes down by 50 percent in 3 months and down to 16 percent in 6 months. Now they are talking about a 3rd shot. If despite all this, the FDA somehow approves this, I doubt it will convince people. This is especially relevant for millions of people who have already gotten immunity via infection itself.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#482

Post by karmelapple » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

bingohbangoh wrote: post #395

ashtonkem wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I think a lot of people here without kids have absolutely no idea that you need to prove immunization in order to attend school. What’s funnier still to me is men (it always seems to be men) outraged that they might need to prove vaccination in order to send their kids back to school, publicly admitting that they’ve been fobbing that work off on their spouse.

People know. They know, if anything, because you need to be vaccinated to attend colleges. The issue is that this vaccine is not FDA approved. A vaccine that provides for only a year is hardly the same as a booster shot which is good for 10 iirc.

Reading this, I wondered what might be keeping it from being fully FDA approved. I found this article explains it well: https://www.forbes.com/sites/leahrosenbaum/2021/07/30/why-ha...

A few quotes I thought were noteworthy:

> For emergency authorization, the FDA required two months of safety data versus six months for full approval, he explains.

> Pfizer submitted its application on May 7 and was granted special priority review status on July 16. In a press release, the company said the decision whether to fully approve the vaccine should come by January 2022. Other reports suggest Pfizer’s approval will likely be sooner, possibly as early as the start of the school year.

> As you might expect, clinical trial data is scrutinized, but the process involves more than just experts reading data. The FDA also inspects manufacturing facilities and meets many times with company executives.

> "I think a lot of us are baffled why the FDA is taking so long.” - Ashish Jha, dean of the Brown University School of Public Health

> To that end, the agency has reportedly expedited the process, even deprioritizing other projects in order to accelerate the timeline.

That last sentence struck me strangely, seeming to imply reprioritizing other projects was a big deal. We're still in a global pandemic, people are still dying here in the USA, and the economic realities still actively happening... yeah, I think deprioritizing other things is about the least surprising thing imaginable.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#483

Post by rubicon33 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #438

rubicon33 wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should be reacting rationally to rates of hospitalization and deaths -- and right now, those are barely changed in NYC, No. No. No. No. No. Why is this so hard for people to understand? A virus doesn't just enter your body, and quietly go away. In MANY cases, it can have a lasting effect on your underlying health and wellness. This isn't a point of question, it's a known FACT that is all too often left out of th…

Thank you for providing an excellent example of the fear-based reasoning surrounding "cases". I understand that you are scared, but is incorrect to imply that my opinion comes from a lack of understanding of what you're talking about. > Why is this so hard for people to understand? I understand your argument, but I disagree with you, based on a long education in this area, a deep understanding of the data, and person…

> Some do not. This one does.

I am sure you believe what you are saying, and I am also not doubting that you have some education on the topic, but I have to disagree.

Take for example, this study [1] demonstrating significant loss of grey matter in the brain for COVID patients, both hospitalized and non-hospitalized.

As our understanding of virology evolves it is becoming more and more clear that the notion of ephemeral infections is just flat out incorrect. You likely maintain SOME impact from that infection, its just a question of how severe, or in some cases WHEN (see: chicken pox -> shingles). Viruses wreak havoc, and that is a point which is well documented, and slowly but surely people are starting to pay attention.

My gripe with your comment is that it completely disregards this point and treats the risk of viruses and either death, or no risk at all. The truth is far more nuanced than that, and there's legitimate reasons to want overall CASE COUNT to come down. It's about saving quality of life, including, actual life. Vaccination is the path to do that.

I also don't agree with your comment that "If the choice is to completely up-end our society to prevent people from ever getting sick again, then I'm strongly opposed."

Asking for proof of vaccination is not "completely up-ending" our society. It's quite reasonable to ask for certain personal hygiene requirements (shirts, shoes, etc.) but we can't ask that someone be reasonably protected from a getting and spreading a very dangerous virus? You're somehow OK with being required to wear clothes, which provide almost no protection from anything, but not OK with being asked to show that you're an unlikely COVID carrier/spreader?

[1] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.11.21258690v...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#484

Post by goostavos » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #71

AndrewBissell wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you drawing a comparison between requiring vaccinations (with 30+ year safety records) against measles and polio, for children to attend public school, with requiring vaccinations (with no long-term safety data whatsoever) against Covid for people to go to public establishments? Did you ever need proof of a polio vaccine to get into Equinox?

Hi! Thanks for asking! I very much am drawing that comparison, because there is literally no--and I mean that, literally no --evidence from a credible source to suggest that the possibility exists in terms of actual pathways to a long-term problem. Should that evidence be forthcoming from sources with a credible tether to reality, I will re-evaluate my position, but unlike so many of the fearful types who insist one…

I think it's weird when people take this hyper confident, hyper dismissive black and white "thanks for asking!" stance on an extremely complex topic.

My spicy hot take: this shit is fantastically complicated. At the very least, I think it has to be acknowledged that accurate medical reporting at scale is apparently a Hard Problem and not at all as solved as we would like to think. I don't know how you're defining sources with a "credible tether to reality," but I'd point to the problem with establishing such things _as itself a problem_. VAERS is a perfect example of such a problem. Despite all the hubris in this thread acting like they've blown the case wide open, VAERS folks are well aware that their data is trash.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#485

Post by ok123456 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

mrfusion wrote: post #243

Covid will be long gone in 100 years. But you know what might not be gone: the precedents we’re creating today. Introducing a show-your-papers culture where we once had a free and open society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts This was 116 years ago.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#486

Post by dataflow » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

ibejoeb wrote: post #432

dataflow wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The part that irks me about a vaccine mandate is it being imposed before FDA approval. The FDA isn't confident enough to approve the vaccine yet, yet other parts of the government are (effectively) saying they know better than the FDA? Is it really surprising that people hesitate when they see this? Isn't it kind of alarming to hear a government say, hey, our own scientists haven't approved this, but we want to injec…

The problem is also that there is political pressure to approve it. That sucks. Whatever time it takes to go through the process is the time it takes. Pushing it through is only going to do two things: 1) show that the process is political and that FDA approval is fungible and 2) make us wonder what the purpose of it is and why we should ever do it at all after this, if it can just be bypassed when politically conven…

Yeah, it's a tough situation for sure. I've been wondering if there's a more creative solution that could be implemented here. Like someone from the FDA coming and saying, hey, we obviously won't know long term effects with 100% certainty until a few years pass, but all the signs we're seeing indicate the vaccines are just as safe as any other vaccines up to this point, we've gotten it ourselves, and it's our belief that you should feel safe getting it too. Or the FDA inventing a new type of temporary approval for epidemics or something like that that basically means "we feel this is safe enough to mandate amid outbreaks, but not otherwise". (An EUA seems almost similar, but to me it means "this is safe enough to use in an emergency", not mandate.)

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#487

Post by karmelapple » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:11 PM UTC

gr1zzlybe4r wrote: post #137

This is the point where we have to stop making trade offs of choice and liberty in the name of "security". Give the public open data about the effectiveness of the vaccine and then let people make their own decisions about what to do. The moralization and judgement about the vaccine has become ludicrous. If you're scared to do things around others even if you're vaccinated, then that's fine. We cannot accept a societ…

> We cannot accept a societal change towards mandating choices for people. It will be very, very hard for us to walk that back.

We mandate many choices for people already, including, specifically, about taking vaccines.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#488

Post by psychlops » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

bobthechef wrote: post #316

"The program is modeled after the vaccine passport programs rolled out in France and other European countries, officials said." Because that's working out well (also in Australia). I suppose de Blasio doesn't mind swarms of people protesting in front of Gracie Mansion, none of which will be wearing masks, mind you. And then you'll hear the same spiel about how the unvaxxed are to blame again for the Zeta variant as t…

>(Also, since this mandate will disproportionately affect black and Latino New Yorkers, wouldn't this make it systemically racist according to the standards of today? Wouldn't you be punishing them for refusing to be vaccinated? Yes, reason has long exited the scene.)

Yes, 88% of blacks would be excluded from restaurants by this policy while 80% of whites will walk right in.

https://covid19vaccine.health.ny.gov/vaccine-demographic-dat...

I'm curious how this hasn't made the news...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#489

Post by laurent92 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

peder wrote: post #444

jrockway wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sort of things will health checks be used for in the future? Once Covid is gone, I don't think people will really care about your health information beyond entities that already care (health insurance providers denying coverage because of preexisting conditions, etc.) Certainly, The Mets won't care if you got your flu shot this year, and your local bar probably won't care that you didn't get your annual physical…

Once a system is in place, it'll be repurposed and never go away. Also, "Once Covid is gone". By what metric will it be "gone"? Are you talking zero COVID? That's never ever happening.

Macron in France set the goal at 90% vaccination. At that level across a continent, Covid could be gone.

Rule #1 in politics: Always set the bar to success at idealistic level, so you can fail and blame it on the scapegoats who didn’t trust the government. “BECAUSE some people didn’t vaccinate, we must lock down everyone again and ruin your economy. Blame it on them!” (Mao revolution failed because there were still some naysayers; Saving women fails because there are still some men opposed to true equality defined by unreachable levels of compliance, etc).

But politicians are talented: When you can’t actually solve a crisis (and Covid can’t be solved because it’s out there, now), you’d better quickly find a scapegoat to concentrate everyone’s blame on.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#490

Post by busymom0 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

clukic wrote: post #197

Vaccine requirements have been in place for decades. For pre-K in NYC kids need shots for PCV and Hib. For kindergarten they need more shots: Hep B, Polio, Chickenpox, and Measles, Mumps and Rubella. Going to middle school? Then you'll need more shots, the TDAP and meningococcal conjugate. These are all vaccine requirements. Is it an invasion or privacy to demand children's records? Is it the nanny state? We could go…

No, you are bringing up extreme examples. Other vaccines:

> It is not known how long people who received IPV will be immune to poliovirus, but they are most likely protected for many years after a complete series of IPV.

>Measles vaccines became available in 1963. If you got the standard two doses of the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine after 1967, you should be protected against the measles for life.

>Several studies have shown that people vaccinated against varicella (chickenpox) had antibodies for at least 10 to 20 years after vaccination.

Covid vaccine in Israel is showing to lose efficacy down to just 16 percent in just 6 months.

People who have already gotten covid infection are extremely unlikely to get it again and some reports are saying that they have stronger immunity than vaccinated ones. This is not the case for things like polio, chicken pox, measles etc. Plus based on Israel, the vaccine is also losing efficacy after 3-6 months so they are giving a 3rd shot now. That's not the case with polio and other vaccines which provide a lifetime protection.

Also comparing going to restaurant with going to school is absurd.