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NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#431
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High vaccination rates will only exert selection pressure on the virus causing new mutation strains to become dominant. How is this not understood? Vaccines should only be used for targeted at-risk population. Everyone else should strive for natural immunity.

The same selection pressure exists for "natural" immunity.

Not exactly. Natural immunity is more durable and more complete. Vaccines are often "leaky", offering only partial protection against very specific markers. Whereas NI is more comprehensive and long-lasting.

"Leaky vaccines" result in catastrophic situations like Marek's disease.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek's_disease

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#432
post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

The part that irks me about a vaccine mandate is it being imposed before FDA approval. The FDA isn't confident enough to approve the vaccine yet, yet other parts of the government are (effectively) saying they know better than the FDA? Is it really surprising that people hesitate when they see this? Isn't it kind of alarming to hear a government say, hey, our own scientists haven't approved this, but we want to injec…

The problem is also that there is political pressure to approve it. That sucks. Whatever time it takes to go through the process is the time it takes. Pushing it through is only going to do two things: 1) show that the process is political and that FDA approval is fungible and 2) make us wonder what the purpose of it is and why we should ever do it at all after this, if it can just be bypassed when politically convenient. Is it just fat to be trimmed?

FDA approval does not confer safety and efficacy. It it there to report empirical safety and efficacy.

FDA regularly revokes approval. That should count for something.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#433
post #180
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compulsory injection with compounds that are not medically approved because they haven’t been tested to accepted standards is a good thing? For what it’s worth, I’m vaccinated and wear a mask in every public encounter until I’ve discussed the risks with whoever I am dealing with whether required to or not. However I strongly disagree with mandatory medical treatment of any kind. I could imagine a law for emergency va…

If it wasn't tested to accepted standards, it wouldn't have been delivered into my arm months ago.

You’re just wrong. It’s only approved for emergency use - by waiving the accepted standards.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you know, let people decide if they want to take a risk. What do I care if someone doesnt want to get vaccinated and put themselves at risk? Thats on them. Just like they can go bungee jump or drive a race car.

Primarily because of the threat to our healthcare system, but also because of those with high risk of breakthrough infection and those who cannot be vaccinated. I find it a little hard to believe that anyone who has lived through this pandemic does not understand this.

> those who cannot be vaccinated

You mean the same people this mandate will prevent from participating in society?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#435
post #94

By not getting vaccinated you are pushing the onus of responsibility to society. When you occupy a bed in a hospital for a preventable disease (like covid post-vaccine) you are a detriment to society. You are occupying precious resources because you were dumb. Just dumb. No ifs or buts - we need to start calling out stupidity again. We already handle people occupying hospital resources with self inflicted diseases, l…

Now let's do obesity. From the CDC [1]: > From 1999–2000 through 2017 –2018, US obesity prevalence increased from 30.5% to 42.4%. During the same time, the prevalence of severe obesity increased from 4.7% to 9.2%. > Obesity-related conditions include heart disease, stroke, type 2 diabetes and certain types of cancer. These are among the leading causes of preventable, premature death. > The estimated annual medical co…

Very true. Sad that you had to open a throwaway account just to speak this truth.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#436
post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Vaxed and pro-vax, but I'm pretty opposed to this policy out of NYC. (And I suspect other cities soon). I'm personally a bit of a privacy nut so take that as you will, but open to changing my mind.

To have a different take than other people, I just don't know if this precedent is really one that we want to start, particularly if you are liberal/leftist.

For e.g. let's say we're at the beginning of the HIV epidemic, and the govt mandates a policy requiring you to have a negative HIV test in order to go-to any bar/restaurant etc or there are a bunch of private businesses that say they don't want to risk their patrons from getting HIV, so require a negative HIV test in order to enter, or even that their patrons are just uncomfortable being around people with HIV so they mandate it.

HIV patients aren't a protected class so it could happen and there's nothing anyone can do about it, yet I bet most of the people wanting these vaccine card mandates now would disagree with that policy.

Businesses being able to reject/accept customers can already run into some weird civil rights issues already, and it's strange that so many people who are ostensibly left wing are advocating for libertarian positions on what a business should be able to discriminate on, because it benefits their team this time.

How many people out there argued that a business should have to bake a gay wedding cake, b/c businesses shouldn't discriminate on your sexual preference, but think they should on your personal health decisions? (Which, since vaccines work means that patrons in that business who are vaccinated shouldn't be in any particular extra danger.)*

More frustrating is that if we want more people to be vaxxed there's many more things that we that aren't punitive, but probably don't feel as fair. (aka why did I get nothing for getting vaxed but XYZ got 100-1000$/lottery/free tickets whatever.) Since a large portion of the unvaxed aren't the Trumpian sterotype, but concerned with things like having to take days off of work to deal with side effects. [0]

0: https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-co...

* This discounts the generation of new variants outside the business, since this policy is ostensibly targeted at keeping patrons safe, not at being a pseudo-mandate for getting the vaccine.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#437
post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Residents of the US have self-selected into two cohorts: 1) People that will get resistance via vaccines 2) People that will get resistance via infection Some 30-40% of the US population decided on #2. Roughly 0.7% of them will die because of that decision, but this is exactly what they are asking for ! If you are in cohort #1, you really don't have a lot to worry about from the virus. Why are you denying people the…

If the group of people in 2) were not a petri dish for viral mutations, and if my insurance didn't have to pay tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat them when they get hospitalized, due to an unwillingness to get a free vaccination, I would have no issue with any of them.

After a year and a half of this nightmare, I'm not really interested in lifting a finger to help people who are both too stupid to help themselves, and who are putting the rest of us in danger by doing so. If you actively refuse to grab at a life preserver that we're tossing you, it's not on the rest of us to jump in the water to help you.

Full FDA approval is coming next month, but I'm sure by the time that happens, the goalposts will once again be moved, and there will be a new crop of excuses for why people aren't getting vaccinated. This has stopped being an argument about facts a very long time ago - it's now an argument about political identity.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#438
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> We should be reacting rationally to rates of hospitalization and deaths -- and right now, those are barely changed in NYC, No. No. No. No. No. Why is this so hard for people to understand? A virus doesn't just enter your body, and quietly go away. In MANY cases, it can have a lasting effect on your underlying health and wellness. This isn't a point of question, it's a known FACT that is all too often left out of th…

Thank you for providing an excellent example of the fear-based reasoning surrounding "cases". I understand that you are scared, but is incorrect to imply that my opinion comes from a lack of understanding of what you're talking about.

> Why is this so hard for people to understand?

I understand your argument, but I disagree with you, based on a long education in this area, a deep understanding of the data, and personal experience.

> A virus doesn't just enter your body, and quietly go away.

Some do not. This one does.

> In MANY cases, it can have a lasting effect on your underlying health and wellness.

In some, rare cases, we see examples of post-viral syndromes. We have seen these for many different viruses.

> I am vaccinated. I have friends who are vaccinated, and have still gotten COVID. One of them still doesn't have their sense of taste and smell back, after nearly 3 weeks post symptoms.

Again, lingering symptoms following an illness are not unknown. Every time I get a head cold, I typically develop a cough that lasts > 3 weeks. By ~all current evidentiary standards for "long covid", I have had "long cold".

Similarly, my grandmother lost her sense of smell to a head cold when I was a child. She never got it back, entirely. Sad, but not something that we took extraordinary societal interventions to prevent.

> They describe being brain fog, and tiredness that they didn't have before, as well as an "itch" in their lungs when exercising that they didn't have before.

Neither of these are objectively defined. I have an "itch" in my lungs, right now (probably allergies). I have never had Covid. When I don't sleep well (which is often, thanks to the state of our society), I have trouble focusing. Is that "brain fog"?

Point being: some people are going to have after-effects from infection. That's unfortunate, but it's not unknown, and the virus isn't going away. If the choice is to completely up-end our society to prevent people from ever getting sick again, then I'm strongly opposed.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#439
post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" We have never before justified such intrusive government policies based on the risks faced by these individuals. " That would be false. https://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/he/hn/immunization.asp which points to https://www.shotsforschool.org/child-care/ https://www.shotsforschool.org/7th-grade/ https://www.shotsforschool.org/k-12/ And then there's https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-8-part-b-chapter-...

Your children don't need to go to a public school, or daycare. You can home school if you're so opposed to these things. What alternative do I have for going to the beach - and outdoor space? What alternative does the private gym owner/operator have? These steps are not the same as your examples.

???

>>> Your children don't need to go to a public school, or daycare. You can home school if you're so opposed to these things.

"you do not need to use public goods, you can stop using public goods and substitute them with private goods that you provision yourself"

>>> what alternative do I have for going to the beach - and outdoor space?

"how dare you challenge my use of public goods, I have no alternatives and this is an imposition on my rights as a citizen"

For real though, in your self consistent thought framework the obvious obligation you have is to buy your own bit of beach or private park.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ID laws are inherently racist, and have been leveraged by white supremacists for decades to keep POC from enjoying the rights and privileges they're guaranteed under the law. Businesses requiring vaccination IDs are de facto discriminating against POCs and other minorities because POCs and minorities are less likely to have ID, and less likely to be vaccinated.

The coronavirus doesn't discriminate. Edit: Can't reply to the child since it's dead, but for the record, I got my covid vaccinations at an AME church (i.e., black) back in April. Edit 2: >Anecdotal evidence is always useful for bigotry. I went to an AME church (i.e., black) back in April and the church was denied vaccines. No you didn't. > The statistical facts are clear: POCs are much less likely to have access to…

But ID laws and vaccine access do discriminate.
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