US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program • Hacker News Board

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#471

Post by rhino369 » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 1:07 AM UTC

clebio wrote: post #399

rayiner wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard this theory. It's not really consistent with the fact that "24" was a torture-fest from the first season, aired before the enhanced interrogation stuff really got going. I was in college at the time, and we loved the show. You don't need much "purposeful desensitizing" to convince a bunch of 20-something guys it's okay to torture terrorists.

I've assumed this theory prima facie for a while. Further examples are movies glorifying war (Homefront, Lone Survivor). As coldtea mentions, it could be considered a form of moving the Overton window .

You've got the tail wagging the dog here. Art is often a reflection of the times.

Do you remember post 9-11 America? People were angry and afraid.

Jack Bauer tortured because America wanted him too.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#472

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 1:14 AM UTC

karmacondon wrote: post #447

anigbrowl wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being disingenuous here. It's like the difference between a police officer shooting an armed criminal on the street (which may be a matter of necessity, though recent examples highlight just how problematic such a standard can be) and beating them up in jail when they're already in a custodial situation and thus present no threat to the public. It's true that is the scale of awful behavior, the CIA's program w…

rayiner isn't the one being disingenuous. CIA interrogation techniques are not the equivalent of the police beating up someone in a cell, the purpose is to gain valuable information. It isn't done for revenge or in situations where the stakes are anything less than the life and death of innocent people. Someone who has information on a literal ticking time bomb is the very definition of a threat to the public. So is…

CIA interrogation techniques are not the equivalent of the police beating up someone in a cell, the purpose is to gain valuable information.

Much as police violence in custody has often been defended with the argument that the police were attempting to obtain information that would lead to a conviction.

It isn't done for revenge or in situations where the stakes are anything less than the life and death of innocent people. Someone who has information on a literal ticking time bomb is the very definition of a threat to the public.

Ostensibly, but for one thing there is usually no actual ticking time bomb because we don't live in the universe of 24, and for another if there was a ticking time bomb there'd be no way to protect against misinformation about its location until it was too late.

The TTB argument implicitly assumes that intelligence gained through torture will be correct and actionable, but this isn't backed up by evidence. If the bomb is on West 63rd street and the torture subject directs you to East 47th street, you won't know you've been lied to until you get there and find out there is no bomb. Conversely, what if the person does not actually know what you want to know, like the 26 detainees mentioned in the report who were picked up despite not being suitable targets for interrogation? When they keep saying they don't know where the ticking time bomb is, how do you tell that they're not just holding out on you?

For better or worse, the US has the sanctioned role of providing security for the world.

Hmmm, no. As I outlined above, its in our interests to hold such a position at present. I think you need to think a bit longer about this, because your views on this subject seem rather shallow.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#473

Post by zghst » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 1:31 AM UTC

kossTKR wrote: post #440

zghst wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree about violence. The animal kingdom is inherently violent. Is it socially inappropriate to use violence in most parts of Western civilization? Yes. But in other places around the world (and in some cultures and groups in the West), violent behavior is the norm. It's brutal, it has lasting effects, it's demoralizing to the victim, however it is what we are all born with. Does that mean violence is 100% unacc…

So you want to skew the conversation from a discussion the legitimacy of torture, to "is violence bad in it's biological essence". The reason people come to stark conclusions like "all violence is bad" is because they experienced real war, or real violence. Read post war literature. I would rather dismiss violence completely, even though it would be slightly intellectually dishonest, rather than indulge in quasi phil…

> torture, murder, whatever, it doesn't matter. Doing it in the name of war or national security doesn't make a moral difference.

Well it seems that the narrative of your post veered toward violence. I don't agree with sadistic methods for extracting information. Violence would be the absolute last tool in my belt to resolve a conflict. War is brutal and unseemingly unnecessary these days. I do agree that not only the elite, but our society treats war as a game. Most of our society is (successfully) far removed from conflict, many of us don't know what it is like to lose our home, security, a loved one, a limb, etc. all to war.

I am fully aware of what our "enemy" is capable of, of what they have done to us, what they do to their own people. I can't say that I get a knee-jerk reaction to the thought that certain parts of our government employs methods of torture when in the back of my mind lies countless stories of reportedly worse violent methods by others. I can't condemn the methods used in the report until I fully read it. I do condemn the overreach of power, misleading our elected officials, and other politically subversive actions.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#474

Post by argumentum » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 1:41 AM UTC

This release is a great development, and despite the overwhelming angst and disgust that many here are (rightly) feeling about these actions, it affirms that we aren't a totalitarian state. That our system of checks and balances does work, imperfectly for sure, but what system is perfect? If you aim for perfection, you will always fall short, but surely this means you should correct your aim and do better, not give up. And better we will do.

Those comparing these actions to the KGB, or Gestapo, are wrong on two counts: scale and intention. There is a difference between the mistreatment of few hundred and that of a few million. There's a difference between the goal of fighting nihilistic terrorists and the goal of exterminating undesirable ethnicities and dissidents.

That we are better than the worst may seem small consolation, but it is something that needs pointing out, if only to protect against moral relativism. To be able to reach towards righteousness, we must be able to distinguish not only right from wrong, but more right from right and more wrong from wrong. Moral relativism is seductive, but it's a crutch that prevents us from building a better society.

The United States of America has unique responsibilities in the world, perhaps in world history, we are the stewards of liberal civilization. As such, we should certainly aim for the highest standards and chastise and correct ourselves when we fail. But only fools could think that if we go away, or withdraw unto ourselves, the world will suddenly be a better place (as many is this thread seem to suggest). Those who deny the reality of power can never fight it's ill-effects.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#475

Post by zghst » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 1:47 AM UTC

jimktrains2 wrote: post #287

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is no justification for torture. None. - revenge - increasing the torturer's loyalty for the organization (how many torturers are whistleblowers?) - showing your superiors how far you are willing to go in pursuit of information - terrorizing the enemies you haven't captured yet - strengthening the connections with subordinate countries (Romania hosted secret torture prisons and bribes where given to officials.…

None of those are justifications.

I don't think torture has to be justified to those looking to employ it. It is the most brutal method to rock someone's core, to break them as a person.

Because of the current technological progress, we cannot just hack into someone's brain. The availability of methods for information extraction today are slim, you have a lot of officers who lost people, had their own tortured, and are looking demonstrate tenacious resolve in the face of an enemy.

I disagree with the use torture, it is sadistic. However in some context it is not inconceivable to why some would use it.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#476

Post by waterlesscloud » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 1:49 AM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #468

waterlesscloud wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

39 people were subjected to "enhanced interrogation techniques", according to this report.

Is that a total number? Because this isn't the whole report, this is just the executive summary. The full (classified) report goes on for over 6,000 pages.

It's the number the executive report gives as the total. There's no reason to believe they're not counting them all.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#477

Post by chii » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 1:50 AM UTC

jdimov wrote: post #261

RealGeek wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not forget, not all the detainees were terrorists. US promoted a reward program in middle east asking locals to turn in anyone with ties to terrorists. All they had to do was tell a name to US military, and collect reward for every name. Many locals turned in thousands of innocent people just to collect a reward. These people were immediately arrested and shipped off to Guantanamo Bay without any investigation.…

As any war on anything is bound to do. You can't push against something and get less of it - you get more pushing right back at ya. In this sense, US Gov is the primary cause of and is directly responsible for nearly ALL terrorist acts in the past decades, globally.

The actual thread of terrorism is so minute, that it's not worth worrying about. However, the fact that a 'war on terror' exists is what is desired (by the various parties that stand to gain with such a war). ANd it's not even just one group or org - it's a whole bunch of them, each individually acting in a self-interested way. The end result is the military industrial complex, all the federal money and various other parties, all pushing in the same direction because it benefits them.

The only real way to get around this problem is balance of power - more people need to be richer, so that on average, nobody can push their agenda better than anyone else.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#478

Post by deciplex » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 1:52 AM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #239

rayiner wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These same detainees were subsequently placed in rooms with temperatures ranging from 59 to 80 degrees Fahrenheit. Oh the horror of room temperature.

Is there a name for the argumentative tactic of singling out the weakest thing a person said, then exaggerating it into a straw man and arguing against it, while ignoring everything else? Whatever it's called, you're not fooling anybody.

Where I come from we call it 'doing a rayiner'.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#479

Post by angersock » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 1:54 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #416

coldtea wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're probably too morally outraged by all this to appreciate the humor in the phrasing of that sentence. How about the humor in sentences about raping?

I'd be pretty happy if HN could muster the same uniform moral outrage about rape jokes involving non-terrorists (e.g. gamergate) as it has shown in response to my comment about terrorists being cold. But I guess my priorities are out of whack.

There's a big difference between a bunch of gamers on the internet making rape threats between/during halo sessions, and members of the .gov/.mil torturing people in black sites...though there are plenty of people on both sides of the gamergate nonsense who'd love to draw a parallel in their level of supposed persecution.

Re: US Senate Report on CIA Detention and Interrogation Program

#480

Post by zghst » Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 1:55 AM UTC

pknerd wrote: post #205

I am sure CIA torture report has definitely shaken average Americans.

The average American reads "torture" and moves on. America is no longer a society whose government is afraid of it, instead we prefer to be 'managed' for the sake of convenience.