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Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

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Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#471

Post by app_gorilla »

gonehome wrote: post #425
scarmig wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something can be endemic and deadly and still something we accept the consequences of without government imposed restrictions. For example: HIV is something that is now endemic and (still) deadly. And yet we don't go around forcibly shutting down gay bathhouses, bars, and Grindr and implementing condom and prep mandates, even though they would be effective at reducing its spread. And for good reason: it'd be a massiv…

I mostly agree, but I think the core difference with HIV is how it's transmitted. You're more in control of your transmission risk. That's less true with Covid given its contagiousness through the air. I'm of the opinion that private companies have every right to require restrictions they see fit. I'm more mixed about government restrictions now that we're post vaccine (with the exception that requiring vaccine manda…

vaccinated people are much less likely to get infected on exposure?

With Omicron, vaccinated people are MORE likely to get infected, 90 days post-vaccine.

Source: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.20.21267966v...

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#472

Post by reallyagain »

scarmig wrote: post #452
jjoonathan wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have to worry about getting HIV every time I go out in public just because some jerk decided he has a god-given right to breathe viral particles into my lungs even though a simple and safe vaccine is readily available.

This is perilously close to "people who get COVID are innocent victims so forcible interventions are justified, while people who got HIV chose to do it so those same nterventions are less justified." I agree that, for the average person, COVID is easier to contract than HIV. But by the same token, COVID is much less severe than HIV, even with modern treatment plans. It's not at core about some abstract principle abou…

> But by the same token, COVID is much less severe than HIV, even with modern treatment plans.

Do you have a source for this? This wouldn't surprise me for the Omicron variant, but I'm surprised that (for example) someone getting the Delta variant in 2021 was "much less severe" than someone getting HIV in 2021.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#473

Post by srcreigh »

ifyoubuildit wrote: post #447
srcreigh wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why doesn't someone make the point that 95%+ (or 98%+ etc) of Americans are protected via natural immunity or vaccines and back it up with data? Once that point is made, the discouraging natural immunity argument can stop because hospitals can't overfill anymore. However until that point can be made[0] I think the "don't encourage natural immunity" position will prevent the most deaths. By the way, I also don't condo…

I attempted to make an argument like that 2 weeks ago. I was using an estimate of 120m instead of the 146 that you quoted. And I'm just a dummy on the internet, so I'm probably at least a little wrong. But the gist was that if you could jab everyone tomorrow (which you can't), you might get a little bit of a benefit in the stats, but politically you'd be dead https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29914681 There's no r…

I'm in Canada where the mandates are quite extensive but also change frequently.

I'd like to think the govt is hoping that each time restrictions are loosed, some type of immunity has developed and restrictionz can be loosed more. When things seem to get worse and worse again, the restrictions are added to ensure hospitals can work.

At the end of the day, a large decrease in severity will be the deciding factor. We can try to model when that will happen, but it will have to actually happen regardless of what the models say.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#474

Post by ecdouvhr »

ekanes wrote: post #218
tyrrvk wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't catch obesity from someone coughing in the same room as you. But to extrapolate further: Sugar taxes have been tried in countries - Mexico for one. I think there was massive backlash from CocaCola/Pepsi etc, for infringing on their freedom to make obscene profits. I seem to recall discussions here about some of the lawmakers finding Israeli spykits on their phones (the ones pushing for the sugar tax). edit:…

Quoting the NYT for anything related to Israel is likely biased.

No matter what one's stance is on Israel, or the Palestine question, it's hard to blame the actions of one company on the Israeli government.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#475

Post by jjoonathan »

jlack wrote: post #449
jjoonathan wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have to worry about getting HIV every time I go out in public just because some jerk decided he has a god-given right to breathe viral particles into my lungs even though a simple and safe vaccine is readily available.

This makes no sense. It's incredibly clear at this point that vaccinated people with covid spread it just the same as an unvaccinated person with covid.

Yeah, and a car crash does the same damage regardless of Blood Alcohol Concentration. We should still punish a drunk driver for irresponsible behavior.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#476

Post by rhino369 »

depereo wrote: post #413
scarmig wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something can be endemic and deadly and still something we accept the consequences of without government imposed restrictions. For example: HIV is something that is now endemic and (still) deadly. And yet we don't go around forcibly shutting down gay bathhouses, bars, and Grindr and implementing condom and prep mandates, even though they would be effective at reducing its spread. And for good reason: it'd be a massiv…

But we do strongly encourage condom usage and tests. There are education resources and awareness campaigns. Knowingly infecting someone or non disclosure of positive infection status during possible transmission activities is a jailable offense. It's not like HIV is something we simply ignore. There are still strong public health measures and laws protecting the public health.

>But we do strongly encourage condom usage and tests. There are education resources and awareness campaigns.

Nobody is saying we shouldn't strongly encourage vaccines. But there is a difference between education/awareness campaigns and a mandates.

The same people trying to prevent unvaccinated people from being a part of society would have flipped out if you had to show PrEP status at gay bars in 2019.

>Knowingly infecting someone or non disclosure of positive infection status during possible transmission activities is a jailable offense.

But you aren't charged just because you don't wear a condom or take PrEP while you don't know you have HIV.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#477

Post by jjoonathan »

scarmig wrote: post #452
jjoonathan wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have to worry about getting HIV every time I go out in public just because some jerk decided he has a god-given right to breathe viral particles into my lungs even though a simple and safe vaccine is readily available.

This is perilously close to "people who get COVID are innocent victims so forcible interventions are justified, while people who got HIV chose to do it so those same nterventions are less justified." I agree that, for the average person, COVID is easier to contract than HIV. But by the same token, COVID is much less severe than HIV, even with modern treatment plans. It's not at core about some abstract principle abou…

> This is perilously close to "people who get COVID are innocent victims so forcible interventions are justified, while people who got HIV chose to do it so those same nterventions are less justified."

Nope. The existence of simple, effective countermeasures and ease of accessing them set the level of moral culpability for refusing and then infecting someone else as a result.

I'd agree that the cost-benefit is nearing the point of "fuck it, let the selfish jerks have what they want."

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#478

Post by Terretta »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #371
throwaway6734 wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you opposed to laws mandating seatbelts or criminalizing heroine?

Not OP, but I am. I don't mind laws mandating that cars HAVE seatbelts. But I think it's your choice if you want to wear them. With Heroin, I'm not sure criminalization really had much affect at all on the percentage of heroin addicts. And I'd bet that it had less effect than the rate of prescriptions for synthetic opiates did.

what about laws mandating cloth triangles on your face^H^H^H^H chest at the beach?

what about laws banning second-hand smoke indoors?

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#479

Post by boring_twenties »

monksy wrote: post #328
boring_twenties wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The good news is if you pay the $100 for TSA Pre-Check, you won't have to take your mask off to clear the checkpoint.

That is not true. They require you to remove your mask to verify your face for a few seconds, other than that you put it back on.

That was my attempt at a joke, apparently unsuccessful.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#480

Post by avs733 »

sib301 wrote: post #363
skillpass wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - I am worried about taking hospital capacity claims at face value though. From what I've seen, it was common for hospitals to report being overwhelmed even during flu seasons pre-covid. I wouldn't classify that level of 'overwhelmed' worthy of mandates upon society. I don't doubt that during these periods of time hospital resources are strained in some way, but there's a difference between this routine level…

Dude go to a hospital in a populated area during this surge. My wife sat in the waiting room for 3 hours with SEVERE abdominal pain, DURING A PREGNANCY and was unable to be seen. We went home. If she’d had an ectopic pregnancy, she would probably not be here anymore.

I had an extremely traumatic accident a week ago and came into a major city hospital as a level one trauma patient.

I came in with absolutely no wait..ambulance directly to a trauma bay, no waiting, no clothing, no nothing.

After about six hours they figure out I was not going to die and was relatively okay. Okay here means two broken legs not “walking around”. Half of the patients at this hospital had covid and I have a five month old at home who isn’t vaccinated (obviously).

Once I got admitted to the trauma floor for a couples days it was like I didn’t exist. The staff seemed totally overwhelmed and it took hours to get some simple things like water. Without visitors, a bag of belongings got delivered by being isolated in a chair well out of my limited reach. Took me eight hours to get my laptop from that bag. I was okay with that because I wanted to interact with as few potential covid vectors as possible but wow.

I think, from my experience there are a couple of things happening:

1) staff are overwhelmed to day with the ratio of patients to staff. I can’t comment why but the nurses I saw weren’t sitting they were constantly moving.

2) staff are demoralized and frustrated. You could hear it in their voices and tone and body language. They were trying but grumpy.

3) shit rolls down hill. Drs. (Save one angel who talked with me for 30 minutes about life) where in and out for brief profunctory conversations that had no communicative value about what was

They need more nurses. And like everywhere else it seems no one is willing to pay them more or treat them better. We can pay execs millions with no qualms and no evidence it works. But as a patient having the worst day of my fucking life, I interact with front line staff and they are out there getting run into the ground and being treated like shit for it.

I’m so sorry for your wife, I was so lucky I had a different experience. But the shared thing, I think, is that the American medical system is going through a full and complete collapse and no one with the power to change things is willing to do anything.

I’m terrified.

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