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Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

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Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#471

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #447
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably would be if they stopped using such shitty cameras. It always blows my mind that the cameras they use appear to be quite bad for the job. > in the night Purpose-built cameras can see better in the dark than humans can.

>Purpose-built cameras can see better in the dark than humans can. Define "see better". Human eyes have way more dynamic range (30 f stops) than even the best cinema camera sensors (14 f stops), and I highly doubt the sensors Tesla use are anywhere close to the gigantic expensive sensors used in cinema cameras and are most likely closer to the sensors in your mobile phone (11 f stops). So no, no camera sensor can cur…

First, I'm pretty sure I said "in the dark" and was responding to "in the night". Human eyes are extremely terrible at discerning actual details in low light compared to even moderate low light camera sensors.

Second, diverting the conversation from low light performance to dynamic range is an unimportant tangent. Deciding that one sensor needs to cover the entire illumination range rather than multiple sensors each simultaneously capturing farther in each direction than we're capable of is an arbitrary unimaginative choice.

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#472

Post by specialist »

CyanLite2 wrote: post #325
specialist wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thoughts exactly. I've made those mistakes myself, many times. I guess I sort of assumed that Tesla would do three things: - Record the IRL decisions of 100k drivers. - Running FSD in the background, compare FSD decisions with those IRL decisions. Forward all deltas to the mothership for further analysis. - Some kind of boid, herd behavior. If all the other cars drive around the monorail column, or going one direc…

Pretty simple that an official Tesla employee could confirm that at this location, there's a giant concrete pillar here. Or worst case, at this location deactivate FSD and require human decision until you're outside of this geofenced area. They could do that with a simple OTA update. GM/Ford have taken this approach.

Imagine Tesla had Waze's traffic tracking data.

The FSD could then infer that no other cars passed thru meridians, planters, and columns. It could infer that only busses travel in restricted lanes. It could infer that all traffic on a one-way road goes one way.

And if FSD remembered its own decision every prior time, it could reconfirm its current decision.

In other words, it could learn from every other vehicle and its own history.

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#473

Post by [deleted] »

nexuist wrote: post #458
fnoof wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flickering is concerning. Kind of suggests their NN hasn’t learned basic object persistence yet.

IIRC this is the stated reason they're dropping radar, the camera network maintains object persistence but the radar disagrees very frequently with the camera network causing the flickering because the system doesn't know which input to trust. Apparently by throwing out radar signals they get smoother object recognition.

[deleted]

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#474

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

nexuist wrote: post #458
fnoof wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flickering is concerning. Kind of suggests their NN hasn’t learned basic object persistence yet.

IIRC this is the stated reason they're dropping radar, the camera network maintains object persistence but the radar disagrees very frequently with the camera network causing the flickering because the system doesn't know which input to trust. Apparently by throwing out radar signals they get smoother object recognition.

> Apparently by throwing out radar signals they get smoother object recognition...

...and driving straight into barriers.

> the system doesn't know which input to trust

Well, clearly their camera network is untrustworthy, so...

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#475

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

soco wrote: post #434
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the thing. The software shouldn't have to "learn" fundamental basic real world shit like that. We KNOW that things don't just flicker in and out of existence. The system should be built on that premise from the start.

Oh but that's what basically every gps software is doing - one moment you're slowly trailing on the highway, the other you're placed on the bridge above.

First, jumping and flickering aren't the same thing. In my experience, google maps is somewhat unwilling to rapidly reposition you if two paths are equally probable.

Second, the cost of deciding that you're in the wrong lane is very different from the cost of deciding that there isn't an obstacle in front of you. The worst thing that happens when a navigator gets your position wrong is you miss a turn and spend a few extra minutes in the car. The worst thing that happens in the other case is someone dies instantly in a cloud of blood.

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#476

Post by edude03 »

mritun wrote: post #390
edude03 wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure this is a logical fallacy. In the case of medications it's actually a fairly common situation where a patient has a terminal illness that there is no treatment available for, but you can get it on "the blackmarket" and in that case, it's either die for sure, or maybe not die, and in that case having a beta makes sense - it ensures you're atleast getting the thing you think you're getting. To me autono…

Better than the `alternative` ?... which is drive the car like everyone else? Why do Tesla drivers get the privilege to beta-test their cars on public road with everyone else around and potentially in their kill-zone?

Why does anyone get to drive on public roads? This seems to be what this entire thread is about.

Are you against Tesla owners in particular? I can hit and kill someone in any car with or without driver assist technologies. Are you worried that it's more likely that I will kill someone while using technology that is invented to make that less likely?

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#477

Post by flutas »

TheParkShark wrote: post #351
flutas wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a big issue with that instance (monorail) is probably because they just threw out years of radar data without having a comparable reliability in place with the vision only. Completely mental that they are allowed to run this on public roadways.

It’s a stationary object. What source do you have to say Tesla deleted the date? Seems kinda foolish for a company like them to just throw data away. They even have data on lumbar support usage.

> What source do you have to say Tesla deleted the date?

Elon himself?

Autopilot v9 itself does not use radar data at all[1], additionally cars manufactured from earlier this year on do not even have the radar modules[2].

Note, that I didn't say "threw out the data" in a silo, I said "without having a comparable reliability in place with the vision only."

[1]: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1397347380874203136

[2]: https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/25/22453518/tesla-vision-rad...

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#478

Post by drcongo »

tw04 wrote: post #424
TheParkShark wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Andrej Karpathy already explained they were getting too much noise from Radar. Adding LIDAR would only complicated it. Unless you have better knowledge than Andrej Karpathy, I’ll go with his word on this. Edit: nitrogen I can’t comment directly on yours, so I’ll ass it here. That’s a good goal to have and they tried that for well over two years. They found too much noise and confusion. If Radar says one thing and Vis…

> If Radar says one thing and Vision says another over and over who do you trust? Neither? If you don't have a tiebreaker you disengage and let the human decide. We solved this problem in systems long ago. You either fail open or fail closed depending on the system. In this case it seems like you'd always fail to the safest option which is alert the human.

I learned on HN long ago that planes usually have three sensors for critical systems so that if one is disagreeing but the other two agree, you still have a reasonable degree of certainty. Having a single sensor that seems to insist on steering toward obstacles doesn't seem great to me.

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#479

Post by thatguy0900 »

brianwawok wrote: post #277
flowerlad wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have redundant AOA sensors on a plane and they disagree what do you do? Alert the pilot. You have to do the same on a self-driving car as well. You can't just ignore a serious malfunction, or pretend to not see it just because you don't know to handle it! To be truly redundant you have to use different technologies, such as camera and lidar.

> If you have redundant AOA sensors on a plane and they disagree what do you do? Alert the pilot. Right, which means it's not a solution for L4/L5 autonomy, only for L2. Tesla is trying to reach L4/L5, so just alerting the pilot is not satisfying the design goal. > To be truly redundant you have to use different technologies, such as camera and lidar. I think that is an opinion and not a fact. Watch a video such as h…

How about they reach lvl 4/5 performance and then they can turn off the lidar then. Because right now, the car is steering into plain view obstacles. That's what they need to worry about, not whether stopping the crashes now goes against their lvl 4 philosophy.

Re: Scenarios in which Tesla FSD Beta 9.0 fails

#480

Post by spywaregorilla »

nexuist wrote: post #459
spywaregorilla wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would the screen show the column if functioning correctly? I don't know this ui.

It's possible they have no classifier for "monorail column" so I don't think anything would show up even if it recognized an obstacle was in the way.

I would imagine having a classifier for something so specific would be detrimental. I have no horse in this race, but I questioned how extreme the car's movements would have been without intervention. The guy yells as if the car is about to crash itself, but... idk, it didn't seem obvious to me that the car was actually going to do that. Does the UI actually show that it was trying to?
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