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Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

theguardian.com

461–470 of 560 posts

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#461
post #29

THIS IS NOT OKAY. We can't have children being used to constant surveillance and accepting this as a part of life. It sets them up for so many problems in the future, where they won't understand the serious implications of constant tracking and surveillance. And sure, nothing too bad comes out of this stuff right now in most of the world, but have you seen China? The minute a government decides to do so, all that dat…

Which bit of this are you upset with specifically? Monitoring internet access on school devices? That's been standard in every single school and workplace for decades. The clear backpacks are silly I'll admit, and also pointless. I agree that kids getting conditioned to be okay with surveillance is bad, but this is all coming from the private sector right now. In China, you now have to submit your face to be scanned…

>In China, you now have to submit your face to be scanned into a database to get a new phone.

Is it not possible to buy a used phone there? I got my last several phones on Ebay; like cars, they depreciate a lot in the first year or two, so getting a 1-2 year old model will save you a ton.

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the vast majority of gun death happens because of illegal guns and yet the problem is that guns are legal. The wretched cesspools that we call public schools are creating a bullying environment that makes kids suicidal and in this way kills lots of kids (some of which translate their despair into murder-suicide) and yet it’s our 2A right that we should dismantle, not the public schools? Our kids are an internation…

> it’s our 2A right that we should dismantle, not the public schools? Didn't say that, nor do I believe that. Just correcting the above. > So the vast majority of gun death happens because of illegal guns Well the majority are suicide, with legal guns. As for homicide, yes. But people don't care about that, really. They care about mass shootings, or school shootings. > The wretched cesspools that we call public schoo…

I agree with none of that. You’re flat out wrong about schools. People from Russia for example who transfer often make note of how amazingly viscous American high schools are. There is a massive difference. Massive.

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#463
post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you suggest it be prevented? I suspect it's some variant of “amend the US constitution to allow the federal government to ban guns”. This is essentially impossible in practice due to the political structure of the United States. If your response to that is “well then, change the political structure of the United States” then that would involve a violent revolution or some other chaos, which would almost cer…

> I suspect it's some variant of “amend the US constitution to allow the federal government to ban guns”. Sigh. You Americans have been taught to think in such black and white terms. It's either "have guns" or "ban guns". You honestly think there is no middle ground, which is utterly and completely moronic because virtually every developed country in the world has a way of dealing with this that America is convinced…

I agree with almost all of your comment. I think as a matter of policy, handguns should be banned or heavily restricted, and if I were in charge of rewriting the US Constitution (which I think is quite shit and a terrible basis for running a modern country), I’d definitely get rid of the second amendment.

You seem to be arguing against what you think a typical American believes, rather than against my actual position.

I’m not arguing that policy shouldn’t be changed. I’m arguing that it’s so difficult or impossible to change, for relatively little benefit compared to other possible reforms, that focusing on it isn’t worth the cost.

The salient difference between the US and other developed democracies is the US’s uniquely broken political structure. What most people don’t understand when comparing the US to Canada or Australia is that the US can’t “just” pass a law making serious and major reforms. It’s simply not possible. In almost every country, when most people agree a law should change, the Parliament just passes it, the head of state agrees to it if necessary, and then that’s it. Not so in the US.

In our naturally gridlocked and fundamentally broken political system, there are only three ways a law can change in a major way at the federal level:

(1) It is obscure enough that nobody cares about it,

(2) It is so widely supported that it can actually get through the deadlock, or,

(3) It doesn’t go through the legislative process at all, but arises from the Supreme Court changing its interpretation of the constitution.

For example: the vast majority of Americans have believed since the 1970s (as far back as my data goes) that abortion should be legal in at least some circumstances. A majority have believed since the early 2010s that gay marriage should be legal. And a solid majority have believed since 2000 (as far back as my data goes, and to be fair it dipped to around half during the Obamacare debates) that the healthcare of all Americans should be the responsibility of the government.

But because of the brokenness of our system, the first two reforms could only be made by the Supreme Court, and we’re still waiting on the third.

We can’t even agree to switch to the metric system, despite practically every educated person agreeing it’s superior.

Given these facts, if you’re going to spend the huge amount of political capital, years of debates to the exclusion of everything else, waiting for once-in-a-generation supermajorities, etc. that were necessary for even a relatively minor reform like Obamacare, you’re better off focusing on something more impactful, like improving transit infrastructure, mitigating climate change, subsidizing poor people’s access to healthy food, or any number of things that will save more lives overall than making mass shootings less likely.

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#464
post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect it's some variant of “amend the US constitution to allow the federal government to ban guns”. Sigh. You Americans have been taught to think in such black and white terms. It's either "have guns" or "ban guns". You honestly think there is no middle ground, which is utterly and completely moronic because virtually every developed country in the world has a way of dealing with this that America is convinced…

I agree with almost all of your comment. I think as a matter of policy, handguns should be banned or heavily restricted, and if I were in charge of rewriting the US Constitution (which I think is quite shit and a terrible basis for running a modern country), I’d definitely get rid of the second amendment. You seem to be arguing against what you think a typical American believes, rather than against my actual position…

Thanks for the very detailed reply. I guess you're right - even though I've spent 5 months in the US this summer, I hadn't understood the difficulties involved in making stuff better.

It sounds terrible, and I'm sad so many people have to live like that.

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#465
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with almost all of your comment. I think as a matter of policy, handguns should be banned or heavily restricted, and if I were in charge of rewriting the US Constitution (which I think is quite shit and a terrible basis for running a modern country), I’d definitely get rid of the second amendment. You seem to be arguing against what you think a typical American believes, rather than against my actual position…

Thanks for the very detailed reply. I guess you're right - even though I've spent 5 months in the US this summer, I hadn't understood the difficulties involved in making stuff better. It sounds terrible, and I'm sad so many people have to live like that.

All things considered, I think the US is a fine country by global standards. Canada is significantly better in many ways, but the US isn't exactly Syria or El Salvador.

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#466

THIS IS NOT OKAY. We can't have children being used to constant surveillance and accepting this as a part of life. It sets them up for so many problems in the future, where they won't understand the serious implications of constant tracking and surveillance. And sure, nothing too bad comes out of this stuff right now in most of the world, but have you seen China? The minute a government decides to do so, all that dat…

The bigger problem is the issues that led to the surveillance - the get an AR15 and shoot up a school culture in the US or the iffy government in China. Both those would be / have been a problem without any surveillance (eg. 30m + deaths in China earlier). On the other hand in our evolutionary environment we lived is small groups where everyone knew what everyone was up to and in the modern world your tech tracks you - it's just kind of part of life that doesn't really cause problems if people are nice.

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#467
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not an unpopular opinion, though it probably is on this site.

It's a very unpopular opinion w.r.t. to America. Gallup conducts a firearms poll every year, and the closest thing to a total ban question is a total ban on handguns. "Do you think there should or should not be a law that would ban the possession of handguns, except by the police and other authorized persons?" should be: 29 should not be: 70 no opinion: 1

You've cherry picked the most restrictive "total ban" question, though, and used it as a strawman. Here's the actual poll page: https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

I don't think anyone sane would read that page, the questions, and in particular trends, and come to the conclusion that gun regulation is a "very unpopular opinion".

But on this site: yes, it's unpopular.

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once we all get old enough this will just be the crazy ramblings and no one will care. What the children are told and believe is true is what will be the truth. Once we're all dead this won't even be an issue. Maybe your old enough to remember a time when you could walk away and live somewhere without anyone from your old life being able to find you...I'm not. Maybe you remember when "everyone" 15+ didn't have a cons…

> It seems like with each generation we become used to a little less freedom and a little more control. This has probably been true to a certain extent ever since we began organizing into tribes. However, I would put forward that even if you aggregate all of the liberty concessions humankind has made for the last few millennia, it would pale in comparison to the supreme control afforded by technological improvements…

Yes things certainly are moving faster then ever before. I do quite wonder where it is were going

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that it makes it more or less effective, but my public school in Birmingham Alabama required clear backpacks back in 1996

If you experienced that yourself, or know people who have, how did that requirement feel? Was there self-monitoring or worrying, at the very least for personal hygiene or medical items?

I was 9, so didn't really think much of it.
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