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Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

theguardian.com

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Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#431

Post by kickopotomus »

jriot wrote: post #331
mattlondon wrote: post #4

Unpopular opinion: make private gun ownership illegal instead of forcing kids to be monitored to make sure they're not carrying

You mean unconstitutional opinion.

Quite honestly, the amendment should have been worded differently and I believe that is part of the reason we are in the mess we have found ourselves in today. For some reason, many Americans only ever seem to quote the final clause of the amendment:

    ..., the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
However, the meaning of the final clause is modified by what comes before it:

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, ...
Now, there are two important things to note:

1) in the context of the constitution, "person" or "persons" is used when referencing an individual or individuals but "people" is used when speaking generally about a collective group. This can also be seen in the 4th amendment:

    The right of the **people** to be secure in their **persons**, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures...
2) Madison wrote the 2nd amendment as a way to provide the States recourse against a corrupt Federal government. At the time when the constitution was drafted, states were much more distinct and separate entities, and the revolutionary war was fresh on the mind so the ability for individual states to train there own militias was an important stipulation.

Bearing this in mind, I do not believe that the 2nd amendment was written as a right provided to individuals but instead as a right afforded to states.

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#432

Post by DanBC »

Nasrudith wrote: post #335
nguoi wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at how that same argument fails to apply to suicide statistics being reduced by removing access to guns or falls from bridges. You're trying to apply a logical train of thought to an inherently illogical act of homicide. But even if you can apply that, it doesn't work. The gun and ammo you can fit in a textbook is smaller than what can fit in a backpack. Backpacks are good at carrying things, that's why we - and…

Suicide usually involves sevee depression and such a lack of motivation that opening every blister packs to overdose is a deterrant. It is very different from a desire to spree kill. Besides if we deal with this low probability extremes shouldn't we factor in early blooming girls who kill themselves after being bullied and shamed over carrying their feminine products without any privacy?

> Suicide usually involves sevee depression

A minor correction: it's untrue to say that suicide usually involves severe depression.

For many people it's something more usefully described as "rapid onset despair".

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#433

Post by CompanionCuuube »

Joe-Z wrote: post #403
philwelch wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some countries like the UK, even adults are discouraged and disallowed from carrying folding knives anywhere. Scenes like this are commonplace: https://twitter.com/MPSRegentsPark/status/974645778558980096

Okay, I was scrolling through this feed to find some proof that this is a joke account. But they are actually serious, right? Are there laws in the UK that allow the police to enter your house and steal all your tools? For people who didn't click on the link: It is a picture with literally nothing but tools supposedly found during a "#weaponSweep" This is fucking dystopian

Just wait until narwhal tusk and fire extinguisher make it onto that list.

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#434

Post by jessaustin »

philwelch wrote: post #190
lm28469 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And worse, gun restrictions only benefit criminals. There's plenty of people who legally own firearms and protect their homes and their property legally. The real question is why are the US ranking so high in violent crime and murder rates compared to other developed countries. You shouldn't feel the need to "protect" your home in the #1 power in the world.

The US isn’t a European country that happens to be in the New World, it’s a New World country that somehow managed to become a superpower. It makes a lot more sense to see the US as an overachieving Mexico or Brazil than as an abnormally violent Britain or Germany.

As usual, colonial powers have difficulty acknowledging the effects of their colonialism.

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#435

Post by slothtrop »

lolc wrote: post #304
slothtrop wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far more school shooting deaths than any other developed country by my count. You're choosing to brush it off because it represents a small percentage of the population. That's a ridiculous position, you could hold the same if school shooting fatalities were in the 10,000s instead of 200s; too insignificant. The weight is in whether it's acceptable or it isn't, not how likely your kid is to get shot. It's been worse…

> You're choosing to brush it off because it represents a small percentage of the population. That is what you concluded from what I am saying. Why did you conclude that? > you could hold the same if school shooting fatalities were in the 10,000s instead of 200s; too insignificant Oh but look at those magnitudes! > You're either a) tacitly saying that the certainty of future school shootings is absolutely fine with y…

> That is what you concluded from what I am saying. Why did you conclude that?

> Oh but look at those magnitudes!

You're saying again exactly what you're being cute about in the first sentence. Not much to deduce here.

> I did not intend to say either of those things. That's your interpretation. But again, why did you think that? My take: A good chunk of the population in the US is sold on alarmism and "something needs to be done".

That's interesting because your "take" completely ignores those suppositions you insist do not apply to you. It it CAN be helped, those who believe so would explore solutions: which one do you favor, and why?

> Great. Another non-solution giving the appearance that something is being done.

"Our calculations reveal that increasing rates of prosecution and conviction for DWI would reduce re-arrests for DWI and by implication drinking and driving more generally." -- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5472385/

It works.

> I'm disgusted by it!

You're disgusted by putting drunk drivers in jail?

> No matter, let's watch their backpacks for guns.

I never said I was in favor of the clear backpacks, not once. That won't deter anything. I do however think the ease of accessibility to guns is great among disturbed young people.

> Why aren't we discussing the resources these kids had, or didn't have, facing their adulthood?

We should. No one says we shouldn't. And yet, are you going to vote or write legislators to allocate resources this way? I doubt it. It's just another way to brush off the whole thing from cons who don't give a fuck and wish people would just not talk about it.

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#436

Post by School-Cotton »

grecy wrote: post #368
School-Cotton wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine that 1 person in the US died per year by getting hit by stray golf balls, and 10 people per year in France. (I'm not saying this is true; just imagine). It might be true that France has by far the highest stray-golf-ball death rate in the world. But this wouldn't mean it is a significant cause of mortality, or an important object of public policy.

Except that we're talking about innocent children being gunned down at school by their fellow citizens. Utterly preventable and disgusting. You might not think it's a big deal, but the rest of the world is horrified by it. (Also your example is very poor - you should use per capita statistics so countries of different populations can be meaningfully compared.)

How would you suggest it be prevented?

I suspect it's some variant of “amend the US constitution to allow the federal government to ban guns”. This is essentially impossible in practice due to the political structure of the United States.

If your response to that is “well then, change the political structure of the United States” then that would involve a violent revolution or some other chaos, which would almost certainly kill more innocent people than mass school shootings do.

> you should use per capita statistics

It doesn't matter, since my example was meant to illustrate a point, not to be quantitatively meaningful. But since you asked, the corresponding per capita numbers would be:

3 per billion inhabitants per year in the US.

149 per billion inhabitants per year in France.

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#437

Post by LyndsySimon »

root_axis wrote: post #376
lolc wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look up how many kids are killed by cars. Then go see how many are killed by guns outside school. Then check how many are killed by guns in school.

Funnily enough, you need to be trained, licensed, and registered with the government to legally operate a motor vehicle.

On a public road, yes.

There’s nothing legally stopping you from buying a car with cash, not registering it at all, and driving it on your own property.

I recall driving farm trucks (and tractors, etc.) while hauling hay when I was about ten years old.

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#438

Post by LyndsySimon »

mythrwy wrote: post #62
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that the law in most (all?) states now in USA, that you need a license to possess a gun legally (ie need to be an authorised person)? This sounds more like, in common with most polls, it shows how the manner of asking a question alters the answers given? I'd be really interested in how the poll would go without "the police and other", and with using a construction based on "allow ..." instead of "ban ...".

You don't need a license to posses a gun in many (most?) states. You do need a federal background check to purchase a gun from a vendor. And a license to carry a concealed gun. But as far as owning a gun, no license needed in any state I've lived in.

Just a note - in 16 states, no license or permit of any kind is required to carry a firearm concealed.

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#439

Post by jriot »

kickopotomus wrote: post #431
jriot wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean unconstitutional opinion.

Quite honestly, the amendment should have been worded differently and I believe that is part of the reason we are in the mess we have found ourselves in today. For some reason, many Americans only ever seem to quote the final clause of the amendment: ..., the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. However, the meaning of the final clause is modified by what comes before it: A well regulate…

Outside of discussing 18th-century language, do you really believe Americans are going to turn over their guns because a politician comes along and says we have been misinterpreting it thus we must all turn in our guns?

Re: Clear backpacks, monitored emails: U.S. students under constant surveillance

#440

Post by cardiffspaceman »

foldr wrote: post #363
philwelch wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some countries like the UK, even adults are discouraged and disallowed from carrying folding knives anywhere. Scenes like this are commonplace: https://twitter.com/MPSRegentsPark/status/974645778558980096

>Scenes like this are commonplace What's your basis for saying that they're commonplace? One silly tweet doesn't really show anything.

> Scenes like this

The link points to one example.

The OP didn't support their assertion that constables commonly confiscate screwdrivers during weapons sweeps, but I don't think OP intended the picture prove that, just to show the definition of "weapon" in use.

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