Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

stackoverflow.blog

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

461–470 of 739 posts

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#461

Post by sanderjd »

lambda wrote: post #429
warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

I'm a high-scoring user who has been put off by this exact behavior. The problem is, the behavior is pervasive among other high scoring users, and whenever I advocate against this kind of behavior, I get a whole bunch of pushback about it. No one seems to want to change. No one seems to want to even engage with criticism about the culture; they just push back and pile on when criticism is brought up. After a couple t…

Yeah fixing this sort of thing is going to require a persistent and unpopular effort from the very top. They'll have to force out people who have contributed huge amounts of time to the community but who are nonetheless causing these issues. There will be a vociferous backlash. The lovey-dovey tone of the OP doesn't necessarily convince me that they have the stomach for it. But I hope they do, because I think it would improve things.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#463

Post by dragonwriter »

fapjacks wrote: post #433
dragonwriter wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The comment I replied to said minorities. Yes, and I answered your question about where the pattern of using “minorities” as it was used there came from. > This isn't about society, it's about a website with worldwide access using anonymous usernames. How is that not part of society? > Nobody is inherently disadvantaged. The issue with disadvantaged, underrepresented, and/or marginalized groups has very little to d…

I should preface this by saying this isn't directed at the parent I'm replying to. It's just the point where I couldn't read anymore without posting. What is offensive is Stack Overflow using this obsequious, cloying, patronizing language and false equivalence -- that women/PoC are broadly inexperienced ("newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups") -- to virtue signal for more clicks and…

> that women/PoC are broadly inexperienced ("newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups")

The quote doesn't say women and PoC are broadly inexperienced, it says women, PoC, and the inexperienced are examples of marginalized groups on SO.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#464

Post by sanderjd »

notatoad wrote: post #84
lainga wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same situation as Wikipedia: Absolute power corrupts absolutely - but so does a small, petty amount.

I think it's significant though that both wikipedia and stack overflow, despite being ruled by petty assholes weilding the smallest amount of power in seemingly the stupidest way possible, have become two of the most valuable references in existence. Do toxic communities produce better content?

> Do toxic communities produce better content?

Personally I think it's just that knowledge-building communities that win the network-effects battle produce good content due to the number of smart and generous people in the world who find out about them, entirely despite their toxicity. But winning the network-effects battle also seems to lead inevitably to toxicity, so we may never have a counter-example non-toxic knowledge-building community to compare to.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#465

Post by sanderjd »

closeparen wrote: post #419
setr wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>(as arbiters and gatekeepers of all that is good against the raging unwashed hordes Its not untrue though, is it? Its really easy for such communities to really rapidly degrade. That SO and wikipedia have both retained quality for so long, while also having strict moderators hunting a strong ideal, in areas where so many of their peers have fallen prey to the unwashed hordes , implies that it may not be so easy to d…

No, SO has not retained quality. It’s a wasteland of promising questions that moderators turned into dead ends, to the point that finding an SO link relevant to your issue in a Google searches is practically guaranteed to leave you more frustrated than before. It pollutes the troubleshooting process with false hope.

Yeah, a haystack full of needles is better than a single needle in a haystack. That is to say: having the same information repeated tons of times is better than not being able to find the one canonical place the information is written.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#466

Post by jpindar »

mehrdadn wrote: post #246
warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

Related to this, I'm sick of the moderators deleting comments and moving discussions to chats on a whim just because they're seeing too many comment. They don't seem to realize they're not helping anybody; they keep doing this as if it's Truth ordered by God. Like, StackExchange admins: If you're getting flags, there's offensive material, the comments are blatantly off-topic, etc., then OK, I get that; you can step i…

>discussion

Ooooh, You used the d word! Closed because Stack overflow is not for discussion.

What SO needs is a forum - not an ephemeral chat but a forum whose topics can be linked to the questions that people want to discuss.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#467

Post by cheschire »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #409
AdeptusAquinas wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If people don't even know what gender you are/what color your skin is, can they actually be intentionally racist/sexist towards you? Not directly, but often indirectly since in such a situation it is common to assume you are a white male. That's a bit off-putting if you are not one, but you might put up with it rather than clarifying your gender/race if doing so opens you up to a risk of direct sexism/racism

I’m not even sure what to say to that. Other people assuming you are like them and treating you the SAME as they would treat all the other SO members is literally the outcome we want isn’t it? We’re being treated equally. But now people are being offended because they aren’t being treated differently based on information the other parties don’t have? What?

What “we” want is a bunch of kinda aligned stuff to accomplish reasonably similar goals.

I don’t think SO wants people to treat people the same by starting with the assumption that I am like you. I think they want the opposite. I think they want you to stop assuming things about the person you’re talking to altogether, and start baking that caution into your interactions.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#468

Post by vorpalhex »

blueline wrote: post #326
vorpalhex wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I just feel it's ok to have variables named after single letters."

"the tone of your response makes me feel like i'm being condescended to" is me expressing an emotion i experienced due to something you said "i feel that " is a different use of the word (nearly synonymous with "think") unless you're a non-native english speaker, i'm almost 100% positive that you know the difference and are being intentionally obtuse

I've actually had this argument with someone who was attempting to force the use of a framework because "I just feel it's easier."

As a good faith speaker, I agree with you. A native speaker should be self aware enough to not confuse an unsupported opinion with a "feeling", nor should we dismiss feelings.

However, frequently, feelings are used as a poor substitute for rationality. Therefore I reject the argument that feelings can't be debated or argued.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#469

Post by kichuku »

I really appreciate the SO team in bringing this up and considering this as a priority issue. Many people have been the "third group" as mentioned by "sigstoat" above, just because of the hostility.

>there's also the third, silent, probably much larger group, who neither asks questions nor answers them.

>it seems as though the single authoritative, comprehensive answers is what helps those people the most.

I hope something good comes out of this effort from the SO team.

However, I just hope that this effort to be lenient though doesn't lead this site from being a fairly reliable site for learning purpose, to becoming "Quora 2.0". i.e far too many duplicates and far too many low-quality questions, that it actually drives away the current expert crowd away from the site.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#470

Post by mehrdadn »

jpindar wrote: post #466
mehrdadn wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related to this, I'm sick of the moderators deleting comments and moving discussions to chats on a whim just because they're seeing too many comment. They don't seem to realize they're not helping anybody; they keep doing this as if it's Truth ordered by God. Like, StackExchange admins: If you're getting flags, there's offensive material, the comments are blatantly off-topic, etc., then OK, I get that; you can step i…

>discussion Ooooh, You used the d word! Closed because Stack overflow is not for discussion. What SO needs is a forum - not an ephemeral chat but a forum whose topics can be linked to the questions that people want to discuss.

Mm in my view they don't need a forum, they just need to get out of the way of the community. The tools are all there; they've designed them well. It's just their imposition of arbitrary unhelpful rules that's the problem.
Post reply on HN