8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service • Hacker News Board

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#451

Post by andrepd » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:28 PM UTC

moab wrote: post #393

DonHopkins wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lost good friends to 4chan/8chan. They were obsessed. At first it was cat pictures and memes, but it went way downhill from there. I've watched those sites cause the transition from normal, interesting, reasonable, open minded, intelligent, happy human beings, to horrible inexcusable pieces of shit who I never want to have anything to do with ever again. It's not just that they inspire a few shooters and mass mu…

I would not lump 4chan into this discussion. I'll concede that some boards on the site are more polemical than others and promote alt-right ideologies without a doubt, but there are many other interesting boards and people on 4chan that are not captured by the broad strokes you're outlining. I know people that browse /fit/, /lit/, /mu/ and /out/ just to name some boards that are perfectly reasonable individuals that…

That's a concern leveled elsewhere in this thread: that you go to 4chan to discuss music or retro video games, and are one click away from an absolute hive of poisonous extremists.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#452

Post by Majromax » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:28 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #404

api wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't censorship though. It's private companies refusing to host something. Nobody has been arrested for speech and there are no laws prohibiting speech that isn't overtly and specifically threatening or otherwise violates the "fire in a crowded theater" test.

What if one day the government decides it wants to get in the business of offering ‘basic hosting’ for everyone. Would we say, well, no we can’t sensor that, that would be government censorship? My point is I don’t think evaluating it on government/private business is very helpful in determining whether something should be allowed or not.

> Would we say, well, no we can’t sensor that, that would be government censorship?

... yes? We would say that.

That's exactly how we draw the line now. For example, nobody would demand a stadium offer naming rights to the KKK, but the state of Georgia had to allow that organization to "adopt a highway" under its charity-for-recognition program (https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/05/us/georgia-kkk-adopt-a-highwa...).

Ultimately, there is no uncontested free speech right in private conduct. If I am exercising a speech right to (say) rent a billboard for an advertisement, then the owner of that billboard is also exercising one if they give me a discount because I'm advertising kittens for adoption.

Once the government gets involved, however, it is often acting with the force of law. That is where we deem free speech rights to be sancrosanct.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#453

Post by TallGuyShort » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:28 PM UTC

LargeWu wrote: post #425

lone_haxx0r wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moral principles don't need to be justified by the "legitimate public interest" (in the short run), otherwise we would kill all babies that we predict will become criminals, even thought they've done nothing wrong yet. I think laws should be fair and consistent. Censorship is inconsistent with freedom and justice. Additionally, the interpretation of messages is subjective. If laws are inconsistent and arbitrary (and…

"individual is the base of all laws" Yes. The Individual. Well, what about the rights of the 29 individuals that were randomly murdered, plus the scores of others wounded this past weekend? What about their justice? I'm sure it's fun for you to treat all of this as some sort of abstract thought experiment, but the reality is that people are dying senselessly and violently for no reason other than we as a society won'…

Except we only apply that thinking to things we don't like, and that varies from individual to individual. If alcohol results in more deaths than hate speech, do we ban bars? Or do you think you should be allowed to make grown-up decisions because you're not the one killing people?

edit: And to be clear, I fully support a private company's refusal to do further business with 8chan as much as their contract allows. But I tire of these arguments about how somebody died, so we have to do something, and ignoring all further reasoning.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#454

Post by lonelappde » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:28 PM UTC

api wrote: post #386

DonHopkins wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lost good friends to 4chan/8chan. They were obsessed. At first it was cat pictures and memes, but it went way downhill from there. I've watched those sites cause the transition from normal, interesting, reasonable, open minded, intelligent, happy human beings, to horrible inexcusable pieces of shit who I never want to have anything to do with ever again. It's not just that they inspire a few shooters and mass mu…

The 'chans seem almost like a leaderless cult. I've also seen people get completely sucked into them in this really honestly creepy way. I suppose it's like a subculture but minus virtually everything positive like socializing with real human beings and having real experiences.

It's the same phenomenon as mold. Everything that doesn't like toxicity flees, leaving only those who get trapped and turn into the toxic mold.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#455

Post by spookthesunset » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:29 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #388

byuu wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several of these extremist sites even forbid and censor attempts at calm, level-headed rebuttals to such hatred. They exist solely to propagate bigotry. The dog and pony show from Google and Cloudflare of only stepping in after multiple mass shootings and tons of press coverage tells you all you really need to know about these companies' ethics. They react to sufficiently bad PR, not out of any set of principles, be…

Censorship rarely, if ever, solves anything. These companies are not crime-fighting services and will have no impact on criminal activity.

Too bad this isn't censorship. This is a private company deciding it is unprofitable to do business with somebody.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#456

Post by 8ytecoder » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:29 PM UTC

oarabbus_ wrote: post #423

ddebernardy wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I'm in agreement with Popper's view that societies should tolerate everything except intolerance. It draws a fine line between what's acceptable speech and what is not. And going by it, things like 8chan should get shut down. The line of thought you put forward, by contrast, rubs me in a very wrong way. It was used to justify, depending on the period and country, not allowing people to vote on the basis th…

You make some great points. Let me also ask you a devil's advocate question. "Let's go to oarabbus_'s house at and kill him" is not protected speech, correct? I am sure everyone agrees upon this. But "Let's attack folks who are as they are a scourge upon our nation" is protected? Why?

Not a lawyer. But I don’t think it’s protected when it’s said with such specificity. “I hate ethnicity ” is probably protected.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#457

Post by PhasmaFelis » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:29 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #29

danharaj wrote: post #15

"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the deaths of others your right to say it." How many free speech absolutists have "skin in the game", or whatever? Every alternative to censorship suggested always puts the burden on the victimized. Like, "if you debate it in public you will defeat these bad ideas". Few who are free speech absolutists roll up their sleeves and volunteer to take the action they presc…

It's not that speech doesn't have consequences. If speech had no consequences, it wouldn't be worth defending. Rather, it's that no man is fit to play the censor - not the Government which would censor political criticism of itself, not a king who would censor his opponents, nor even a billionaire who would censor the media when it spurns him. At the same time, if someone points a finger at you and shouts "I'm going…

> Rather, it's that no man is fit to play the censor

I agree with this, and I'd further say that no man is really fit to rule or have real power over his fellow men. But human society can't function, or defend itself from tyrants, without some sort of power structure. The best we can do is try to make sure that the people in power aren't tyrants.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#458

Post by cc81 » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:29 PM UTC

jaf656s wrote: post #343

DuskStar wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of them is that they can serve customers as they like, as long as they are not violating the rights of a protected class. Political ideology or party affiliation is not a protected class, nor should it be. Twitter could ban every Republican on its platform tomorrow and it if the government tried to stop them the Supreme Court would likely side with Twitter. Where's the line between "political ideology" and "rel…

"kill all the jews because islam says jews are evil" is not protected speech by any stretch of the imagination

If he changes it to "The Quran says the most evil of men are the Jews that all of them will be killed in the final battle"?

protected speech?

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#459

Post by anigbrowl » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:29 PM UTC

spaginal wrote: post #179

eridius wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's beyond clear to me that it absolutely had the potential to radicalize shooters and terrorists I mean, it literally radicalized white supremacist terrorists . There's no "had the potential" anymore, it's a fact. It also sounds like it held plenty of child porn, so I don't understand why it took until now for anyone to do anything about the site.

Are you of the belief that hatred and radicalization doesn’t exist in environments that lack free speech? Lot’s of places on this planet have hyper radicalized portions of their populations that commit aggregious acts of violence, and they lack free speech. Yet free speech is being used as the red herring to blame. Unequivocally, your assessment of these forums causing the radicalization is wrong. Plain wrong. These…

Don't shout please.

Nasty people do exist in any environment, but in just the same way that network effects can enormously magnify things like charitable fundraising or the production of cat memes, they can also amplify the production of terrorism or other undesirable activities. Damaging social infrastructure which allows that is an effective way to impede recruitment and organization.

Re: 8chan goes dark after hardware provider discontinues service

#460

Post by jolmg » Mon, Aug 05, 2019, 7:30 PM UTC

beefield wrote: post #408

jolmg wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really that well informed of 8chan, but bringing it down, while practical, doesn't seem like the ideal solution. Isn't it just like covering your eyes and pretending the problem isn't there? The problem doesn't sound like it's 8chan, but rather these people and their ideologies. If 8chan was brought down, they'll just find another hub to congregate, but now we don't know where to reach them to talk. I thought…

> but rather these people and their ideologies. I think it is rather strong[1] implied assumption here that places like 8chan can't change peoples' ideologies. [1] If you ask me, the assumption is wrong.

I realized that seemed to be implied so I made an edit: "to reach them to talk".