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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#451

Post by bastardoperator »

aphexairlines wrote: post #139
StevePerkins wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> webassembly [is] eating JVM's cake It's hard for me to take all the "Java is dying" threads seriously when they don't even seem to understand where Java plays. Webassembly ? Really? That's a client-side tech, and 99.999% of Java devs ceded the browser battleground pre-9/11. Java's bread and butter is EAI, ETL, and server-side business application development. Particularly with pieces requiring heavily distributed d…

You're right that Java is entrenched in a lot of the enterprise space, but I think you're being quick to dismiss entrants that have gained steam in the last few years. For example, Go is becoming the default in Kubernetes applications. It's eating tech companies that became large in the last few years like Lyft and Uber. It'll spread to other large tech companies like Amazon or IBM with ease. It will possibly get pic…

I'm working with customers now that are running Kubernetes to host Java applications and microservices. I'm not a huge fan of Java or the ecosystem, or the fact you can build a Kubernetes cluster using maven, but to claim its dying is outright absurd.

As a consultant, I see Java widespread. Every organization is either writing Java or running an application dependent on Java that is also mission/business critical. Most of my work happens on the backend, but we see lots of Java upstream with mobile apps, big data, ETL, etc...

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#452

Post by scarface74 »

pjmlp wrote: post #392
scarface74 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it’s “religious” not to tie your career to a platform that the vendor and the market are both moving away from? If I chose my language and technology choices based on what I like and not marketability, I wouldn’t be going near React, Node or any of the cool kids stuff. I would rather not end up like old VB6 developers trying to find a job in 2008. I know a developer who worked in a company for 20 years got laid of…

Religion is the way you happen to defend your switch to . NET in every HN thread, even more than I bash C for, and from your story a certain uncertainty regarding what you got on the CV. Selling services is so much more than tech stacks.

So you have forgotten about the threads that you responded to where I was advocating for native desktop apps over cross platform apps, where I spent years doing C++/MFC, Like this quote: But seeing that I like the optionality of working for any of the dozens of companies that have job openings continuously for JavaScript, C#, C, C++, and even Python, I think I’ll stick with those....

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#453

Post by jacques_chester »

rtempaccount1 wrote: post #256
threeseed wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange attitude to take when you can just target OpenJDK and then it is completely irrelevant what Oracle does or does not do. The fact is that every single one of the largest companies has some Java or Scala code within their core platform. And none of them have ever raised Oracle as a risk.

As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, Oracle employs a lot of/most of the developers who work on the OpenJDK. So Oracle's attitude to OpenJDK and the possibility that it cuts back on development is a likely factor for people considering the platform.

It's likely that OpenJDK developers would be snapped up by other enterprise vendors. There's a serious market in the JDK now, which didn't exist before Oracle created it. Part of competing in that market is having upstream credibility.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#454

Post by dunefox »

erik_seaberg wrote: post #296
pjmlp wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that Kotlin still lags behind Java compiler speed and it is heavily dependent on Java libraries.

Compiler speed is a fantastic tradeoff. I'm made of meat that runs at maybe 0.0001 MHz after coffee, so I want to offload anything I can to the compiler!

That's a very sensible standpoint.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#455

Post by apk-d »

hestefisk wrote: post #388
lkrubner wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony is that Poland was once the #1 or #2 power in Europe, but they were destroyed by unanimous voting. Want to raise taxes to build an army to repel foreign invasion? Everyone agrees, except that one person too far from Russia to care, and the taxes get vetoed, so Russia wins, thus Poland was destroyed. The Poles know how dangerous unanimity is.

What’s ironic is that Poland fought for years to become a member of the single market, after years of stagflation. They profited massively in terms of growth and wealth. Now after X years of membership they no longer want to play ball and think it is ok to corrupt the system. The same goes for Hungary after years of iron fist Soviet rule. It’s deeply tiring and begs the question whether the EU would be better without…

Governments come and go, Poland isn't a monolith, and definitely not over a period of 15 years. Lazy thinking.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#456

Post by jacques_chester »

le-mark wrote: post #374
tootie wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any organization that bought into JEE is probably willing to pay Oracle's license fees. That being said, I've literally never seen an org that preferred JEE to Spring and that includes numerous massive enterprises.

Spring is built on the good parts of JEE; servlet api, jdbc, etc.. so it's not immune to churn in this area.

A lot of the good parts of the JEE were inspired by Spring, which can go ahead with ideas without needing to go through the JCP. There's a cyclical relationship between them.

Disclosure: I work for Pivotal, we sponsor Spring.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#457

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

StevePerkins wrote: post #107
dtech wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too little too late, and I highly doubt that (5-year-old) Valhalla will deliver even one of the promised features (value types) in the next 3 years. Remember that the original plan was to have all Valhalla features in Java 10. Java/JVM was in the ideal position to dominate the software world for the whole 21th century 15 years ago. Instead they did an IE6 and stagnated for so long that their competitors became plain…

> webassembly [is] eating JVM's cake It's hard for me to take all the "Java is dying" threads seriously when they don't even seem to understand where Java plays. Webassembly ? Really? That's a client-side tech, and 99.999% of Java devs ceded the browser battleground pre-9/11. Java's bread and butter is EAI, ETL, and server-side business application development. Particularly with pieces requiring heavily distributed d…

And then there's the evil implication of this aging, entrenched ecosystem. Companies who wrote their Java development process documentation did so in the 90's, with guidance from IBM or a "big 3," and now treat EVERY project in the business as though it was the same scale and complexity as the mainframe projects they were trying to supplement. Which is why it takes 6 months for me (on the FAST TRACK!) to even get a development environment for a simple CRUD web app designed to replace a terrible Excel spreadsheet with 5 users -- so that I can submit my feature list and test plan to review boards -- so that I can START writing my application.

No wonder it takes the IT group 2 years to write an application I can have in production in 3 months! I don't need a reverse proxy! I don't need redundancy! I don't need an encrypted file store! It's a shared, specialized to-do list application! I don't need the overhead of a global financial application running on Sun E10K's!

Nothing personal, but there are a lot of us out here who can't WAIT for people who have based their careers on "enterprise" Java to get out of the way already, and retire. When computers were as powerful as smart watches, we NEEDED all that distributed processing and faffing about with off-line data. Now? Not so much.

"Hype trains" Rust, .NET, Go, etc.? Maybe you, too, think that Rails is too "new" and "unproven" to use for anything.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#458

Post by jacques_chester »

pjmlp wrote: post #398
sangnoir wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The Java ecosystem is far larger than Oracle. Java can absolutely thrive if Oracle were to cease to exist tomorrow, or if everyone else[1] decides to move to a fork. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19827875

Again, where are those contributors? Companies that just repackage Oracle's work don't count.

Pivotal is hiring for JDK/JVM development. Worldwide. If you're at Oracle and you want out, drop me a line or do a search for "JDK" at https://pivotal.io/careers/openings

Several companies outside Oracle already employ JDK folks (IBM, for example). I expect that increasingly our partners and competitors will do the same.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#459

Post by TheRealDunkirk »

elchupanebre wrote: post #383
pron wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you’ve drunk the kool-aid a little. Don't know about kool-aid, but if you want to do interesting platform work -- on GC, compilers or low-overhead observability -- you could work at Microsoft on .NET, at Google on V8 (or Go), or at Mozilla on WebAssembly, but the truly cutting-edge, state-of-the-art work is done at Oracle on the JDK (and related projects like Graal), which is where I get to lead a project t…

Here is my fickle opinion of course not reflecting of market shifts. A couple of years ago I was a CTO of a midsized company which had a misfortune of building the main product on top of Oracle DB (decision was made before me). Oracle the database is great: performant, scalable. A bit pricey and complex to manage but that's acceptable for what it delivers. Oracle the company is absolutely horrible. I've never dealt w…

"Never again will I use anything with Oracle name on it. No company under my leadership will use anything Oracle. Not even Java or MySQL. Regardless of the technical merits of the product."

Now THAT is leadership I can follow. So, uh... you hiring?

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#460

Post by pron »

slightwinder wrote: post #393
dijit wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’ve drunk the kool-aid a little. Outside of complex projects headed by PhD compsci students (who used to learn java in uni but those courses are now taught in python) there isn’t a whole lot of mindshare going towards java these days. At least in regards to new FOSS projects. I can say that my company’s use of java is diminishing rapidly over the last 5 years too. No matter what you think of the technologi…

> there isn’t a whole lot of mindshare going towards java these days. At least in regards to new FOSS projects. No surprise, Java never had a great standing in FOSS. Most FOSS in java originates from companys or research-projects. Which might be the reason why many data science FOSS-tools these days are written in java. Sometimes I even get the impression apache foundation is now an oracle-sweatshop because of all th…

> No surprise, Java never had a great standing in FOSS. Most FOSS in java originates from companiess or research-projects.

Huh? You have Spring and Tomcat and Jetty and Spark and Netty and Kafka and Lucene and ElasticSearch, and even the Java language alone is consistently in the top three most popular languages on GitHub

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