Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE • Hacker News Board

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#311

Post by djvu9 » Sat, May 04, 2019, 8:30 PM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #214

djvu9 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java the language is slightly different than JVM but nevertheless the future is not very bright IMO. So far there are a few areas Java/JVM still holds a strong position but if you take a look at GitHub trending there is little or now new blood coming in. - Android. No serious competitor to Java yet (JVM is irrelevant). But the Google lawsuit could have some complication. - Spring stuff. I won't be surprised if they w…

Golang, at least in its current incarnation, has no chance of replacing Java in its core use case - business processing. Golang is replacing infrastructure that used to be written in C, which makes sense considering that's what it was designed for . It's weird that you put Spring and react/angular/vue in the same sentence, because there is no overlap in these problem domains.

Just take a look around to check out new enterprise MIS projects being implemented with a simple golang backend + reactjs etc frontend. The adoption of intereactive/responsive and single page web UI, and the more iterative development practices are certainly driving to a different direction compared to Spring (and RoR etc). I think the main force is from the frontend tech here and that is why you see them in the same sentence.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Post by sheeshkebab » Sat, May 04, 2019, 8:34 PM UTC

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #227

blattimwind wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Am I mistaken about any of this? You can't revoke a GPL license unless the licensee violated the GPL. Additionally, the GPL has this nifty "Automatic Licensing of Downstream Recipients" clause. In other words, if you put some code out there under the GPL, there is no way for you to un-GPL that particular code. Even if you bring out a new version of it that isn't GPL any more, the old version still is. (This is quit…

It sounds like the parent's issue is the other way, that Oracle might remove the classpath exception and then GPL would infect everything , effectively killing commercial opportunities.

Yes, that’s what I was wondering about

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Post by djvu9 » Sat, May 04, 2019, 8:36 PM UTC

jayd16 wrote: post #218

djvu9 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java the language is slightly different than JVM but nevertheless the future is not very bright IMO. So far there are a few areas Java/JVM still holds a strong position but if you take a look at GitHub trending there is little or now new blood coming in. - Android. No serious competitor to Java yet (JVM is irrelevant). But the Google lawsuit could have some complication. - Spring stuff. I won't be surprised if they w…

I can see you're a Go fan but I think .NETcore has potential to start eating away at Java in a big way if Microsoft continues on its current path. They can actually provide the enterprise level support big corps want.

.NET's developer community is in no place comparable Golang's or Javascript's. Just take a look at GitHub's trending page by programming languages. Javascript is really bad for server side applications, and yet here we are with so many nodejs server apps. It doesn't matter much how good a tech is. What matters more is what the new generation is using, which you can get a sense from the trending page on GitHub.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Post by scarface74 » Sat, May 04, 2019, 8:52 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #269

snarfy wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cross platform mattered a lot more when you were dealing with Sparc, MIPS, Alpha, PowerPC, Intel along with AIX, Sys-V, BSD, Solaris, HP-UX, etc. Today your server is x64 and it's running Linux. Your client is a browser.

There are many other computers in the world than just desktop and servers.

Except for mobile, most of those you would be better off just using C.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Post by rbanffy » Sat, May 04, 2019, 9:12 PM UTC

shadowmint wrote: post #244

evgen wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, in practice is works something like this: 1) write everything in python 2) yeah, the performance here is good enough so ship it 3) there is no 3 There are very few situations where performance is going to be an issue for you where there is not an existing C module solution that will solve the problem for you. The tired old 'python is slow' trope is getting more and more irrelevant every day. There are other aspec…

I spent 4 years as a professional python developer. We certainly shipped (using django) and it was certainly slow, and remains a painfully slow very successful enterprise app. I’m not arguing that the slowness is deal breaking , but it is slow, and it does, routinely, break the SLAs its supposed to meet. So... unusably slow? no. ...but slow? yes, it really is. imo. your milage may vary. /shrug

Unless you are careful, the Django ORM will generate a lot more database accesses than needed. I'd almost bet that most of the time the user spends waiting for the app, the app is waiting for the database.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Post by rbanffy » Sat, May 04, 2019, 9:16 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #44

rbanffy wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hot parts we can implement in C. There's not much overhead in crossing over to native code.

So I have to learn Python and C. With C being an incredibly difficult language to get right. So difficult that languages like Go and Rust were invented.

Only if the performance of your hot Python parts is a deal breaker, which is almost never.

In almost 20 years, I did it once. And it wasn't really needed, but I wanted to know how much it'd be improved.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Post by javagram » Sat, May 04, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

sasavilic wrote: post #276

perlgeek wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the relationship between OpenJDK and Oracle, exactly? As somebody who's not deep in the Java ecosystem, the precise relationship is not clear to me, but it does seem that Oracle is a major contributor to OpenJDK at least, most likely also involved with the project steering.

AFAIK, Oracle's own JDK is being built from OpenJDK source and they work on OpenJDK source directly. The only difference is that there is no official LTS of OpenJDK by Oracle. You have to either keep upgrading to newer OpenJDK (with potential breaking changes) or pay Oracle license to use their LTS JDK

> You have to either keep upgrading to newer OpenJDK (with potential breaking changes) or pay Oracle license to use their LTS JDK

I don’t think this is accurate. Alpine and Debian OpenJDK have been getting point releases (u###) through the distribution package manager. I’ve got apps running on openjdk 8 and 11 (the LTS versions) and they are still getting u### releases with security fixes and bug fixes despite Java trunk already having moved past 11.

Edit: did some further research on this and it looks like various distros are providing the LTS support for java 11. For instance Amazon Linux will be supporting Java 11 through 2023. https://dzone.com/articles/oracle-continues-long-term-suppor...

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Post by Gibbon1 » Sat, May 04, 2019, 9:25 PM UTC

bborud wrote: post #41

Oracle makes Java a risk factor in all projects. I stopped approving new Java projects in my team 2 years ago after we switched to Go. This wasn’t a decision we took lightly and it took almost a decade for me to be comfortable with leaving Java behind. But it is the right thing to do. Oracle is not trustworthy.

> Oracle makes Java a risk factor in all projects.

Far as I understand having any Oracle products is a liability. They can't 'audit' you if you don't use any of their products.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Post by DangitBobby » Sat, May 04, 2019, 9:26 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #19

DonHopkins wrote: post #4

>But once Eclipse products would be not vendor-neutral anymore, the EF’s tax exemption might become void, which would mean a financial fiasco, or possibly mean the end of the organization as a hole. I think the problem is Oracle's a-hole, in this situation.

Do not anthropomorphise the lawnmower.

It's not a lawnmower. It's an organization made if people, and it's responsible for it's actions.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Post by tootie » Sat, May 04, 2019, 9:51 PM UTC

Illniyar wrote: post #2

Well, mmm, good riddance? I suppose this will cause a lot of hardships to a lot of people who need to maintain JavaEE, but the fact that Java EE is no more is nothing but good. It is a nightmare case of overengineering.

Any organization that bought into JEE is probably willing to pay Oracle's license fees. That being said, I've literally never seen an org that preferred JEE to Spring and that includes numerous massive enterprises.