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Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

nytimes.com

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Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#451

Post by bubblewrap »

vehementi wrote: post #420
bubblewrap wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, they are free to do that. I mostly take issue with the framing by the NYT, talking of "exploitation" and unionization as the only choice/way to fight back. Especially the "exploitation" bit - game developers are not slaves, by a long stretch. If work conditions are bad, it is because many people fancy their job over the alternatives. You could also "fight" by creating your own game studio with better work condi…

> If work conditions are bad, it is because many people fancy their job over the alternatives. What lol? No, working conditions are bad due to deadlines and management being unwilling to hire more people / move deadlines / cut scope / etc.

They get away with it because people are queuing for the job.

And you can't assume there is infinite money available to spend, either.

Of course there is no need to make a job horrible just because it is in demand. I'm pretty sure there are some pretty good jobs in game development, too. For example indie developers who hit it big (Mojang...).

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#452

Post by mailslot »

moate wrote: post #381
mailslot wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every game development job I’ve had has been terrible by any measure... but I still crave to go back. It’s easy to put in long hours when everyone else does and you genuinely enjoy their company. It’s easy to forgo pay, when you have equity. You’re just never going to get the opportunity to work creatively with a talented team at Wells Fargo. It’s a totally different experience. If you’re concerned about a work/life…

>>I’d hate if game development turned into a typical corporate 9-5, and was inclusive of all skill levels. Why? If the quality of the games stays the same, what benefit is there for the employees to work 20 hour days during crunch? How is that inherently "good"? How would you make it better than "terrible by any measure"?

How would gamers feel with 2x longer release cycles and higher cost and/or less features?

Lower profit and higher expenses is the only way, but given the risks of any ambitious title, small studios are nearly always flirting with bankruptcy as it is.

There’s no easy answer, but time to market and risk will suffer.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#453

Post by fredophile »

WalterBright wrote: post #406
CM30 wrote: post #97

> For many kids who grew up with controllers in their hands, being a game developer is a dream job, so when it comes to talent, supply is higher than demand This is basically the reason for low wages in quite a few 'passion' driven industries. If a job is something enough people want to do, then talent is cheap and plentiful and companies can provide low wages and poor conditions that for every person who quits, ten…

> teaching wages On the other hand, the retirement and health care packages for public school teachers is quite generous

Retirement benefits for government employees typically also rely on the current government adequately funding those liabilities. There are several examples of governments that consistently failed to do this and then reducing those benefits when they need to be paid out.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#454

Post by LanceH »

bsanr2 wrote: post #450
LanceH wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not keen on how most professional photographers for these events don't point out they'll retain copyright on all shots. I know what that means, but they let their customers find out when they aren't allowed to get raw/negatives or prints from anyone else. I'll take a work for hire option, thanks, without the attitude that it's an art and they're above that.

Exploitation, then.

You mean a straightforward negotiation.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#455

Post by zenkat »

ghaff wrote: post #283
lacey wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a photographer by hobby and you very often see people wanting to hire someone good but who isn’t expecting to make a living at it with offers like “I’ll let you shoot my event to help build your portfolio, and all you have to do is give me a copy of all the photos.” Or alternatively offering something like $100 for four hours to do lifestyle street shoots. I don’t know how often they are successful at getting pho…

"For the exposure/to build your portfolio." Uggh. To be clear, I sometimes shoot events for free as a favor. And I sometimes shoot concerts or sporting events just because I feel like it. And if you find my photos on Flickr I'll probably give you permission to use them for free. (Though if you want to pay me, that's fine too and I do sometimes get annoyed with the presumption that I'm not going to ask for a fee.) But…

"You can die from exposure, you know."

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#456

Post by vehementi »

bubblewrap wrote: post #451
vehementi wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If work conditions are bad, it is because many people fancy their job over the alternatives. What lol? No, working conditions are bad due to deadlines and management being unwilling to hire more people / move deadlines / cut scope / etc.

They get away with it because people are queuing for the job. And you can't assume there is infinite money available to spend, either. Of course there is no need to make a job horrible just because it is in demand. I'm pretty sure there are some pretty good jobs in game development, too. For example indie developers who hit it big (Mojang...).

Yes, we know they are getting away with it, but that's not the subject...

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#457

Post by literallycancer »

wolco wrote: post #337
lacey wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a photographer by hobby and you very often see people wanting to hire someone good but who isn’t expecting to make a living at it with offers like “I’ll let you shoot my event to help build your portfolio, and all you have to do is give me a copy of all the photos.” Or alternatively offering something like $100 for four hours to do lifestyle street shoots. I don’t know how often they are successful at getting pho…

25 an hour might be a good rate for someone starting out. I do programming work that takes that long and charge less than that amount.

Do yourself a favor and spend a few of those hours researching how much you can reasonably charge for programming work.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#458

Post by literallycancer »

jackfraser wrote: post #311
lacey wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a photographer by hobby and you very often see people wanting to hire someone good but who isn’t expecting to make a living at it with offers like “I’ll let you shoot my event to help build your portfolio, and all you have to do is give me a copy of all the photos.” Or alternatively offering something like $100 for four hours to do lifestyle street shoots. I don’t know how often they are successful at getting pho…

> Or alternatively offering something like $100 for four hours to do lifestyle street shoots. I personally think that's not a terrible offer. $25/hour to stand around clicking pictures? It's a lot easier than most work people do for minimum wage, first, and secondly it's not like you have massive film costs or need a ton of technical knowledge anymore. 99% of the shots people want can be accomplished with stock or re…

It's almost never a good idea to start by charging less. The people who don't want to pay your rates are just looking for the easiest excuse and weren't going to become customers anyway.

The bulk of commercial photographers' work are weddings. A run-of-the-mill wedding probably costs about 50k, so to have nice pictures from it you'll spend maybe 10% (?) on a photographer. So 5k for a day and a half of work? This puts a lower bound on other photo shoots as well, since there is never going to be a shortage of weddings.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#459

Post by NoodleIncident »

rubicon33 wrote: post #294

It's incredible reading through the comments on this post and nobody seems to see the game industry for what it is: the canary in the coal mine. Programming within the game industry is sliding rapidly toward blue collar, and you'd be a fool to assume the problem is contained. The problem for programmers is simple - Supply and Demand. Thanks to a massive publicity push from big tech, the public is being sold - hook li…

The impression I've gotten is the exact opposite. Game development has never been a good career, at any point between the Atari and today. No matter what year the story is set, stories of game development always seem to have the same stressful backdrop. No game developers are reminiscing about the good old days, before the supply of programmers increased.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#460

Post by watwut »

slg wrote: post #219
derefr wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the only practical solution is for people to stop taking on terrible jobs because of some sense of 'passion' So the “practical” solution is to change human nature? That doesn’t sound right. It’d be like saying that the practical solution to human trafficking is for people to stop visiting prostitutes; or that the solution to gangs’ drug income is for people to stop buying drugs. In all these cases, you can quash su…

>In this case, the demand is “the ability to express myself to a huge audience.” People are willing to pay to do that. Because of that, they see any job where they get to do it as a net positive, even if the job is horrible. This is true for any job that is just an extension of a hobby. People put on local community theater productions in their spare time because they find it fun and fulfilling. You don't have to pay…

Majority of open source developers are paid or work jobs that gives them a lot of free time. Foss runs yearly polls to determine that.
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