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Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

nytimes.com

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Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#381

Post by moate »

mailslot wrote: post #198
lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

Every game development job I’ve had has been terrible by any measure... but I still crave to go back. It’s easy to put in long hours when everyone else does and you genuinely enjoy their company. It’s easy to forgo pay, when you have equity. You’re just never going to get the opportunity to work creatively with a talented team at Wells Fargo. It’s a totally different experience. If you’re concerned about a work/life…

>>I’d hate if game development turned into a typical corporate 9-5, and was inclusive of all skill levels.

Why? If the quality of the games stays the same, what benefit is there for the employees to work 20 hour days during crunch? How is that inherently "good"?

How would you make it better than "terrible by any measure"?

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#382

Post by dwaltrip »

mediocrejoker wrote: post #354
ghaff wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>$25/hour to stand around clicking pictures? I'm going to assume good intent but that's an incredibly condescending remark. Just so you know. How about if I offer a trained developer $25/hour to write me some software? It's just sitting and typing.

Why do you assume that the parent was talking about your photography ability, and not their own?

They were talking about the act in general.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#383

Post by magduf »

systemBuilder wrote: post #324
magduf wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but by extension that unions are evil, corrupt and lazy organizations infiltrated by organized crime. That's because, in the US, it's all true, historically. Auto unions were a big reason why Detroit's automakers were so uncompetitive against the Japanese automakers in the 80s; autoworkers got ridiculous pay for menial work, which is why Detroit moved a lot of their production to Mexico and Canada, and other automak…

Auto Unions were blamed by corporate execs in the 1970s-2000s but the fact is the yen was undervalued at 250/dollar to 300/dollar in the 1980s up until 1999. Execs needed someone to blame or the board would fire their asses for not having the political connections to keep the car imports out..

The other big problem was that American cars at the time were poorly-designed, unreliable junk, and Japanese cars were great.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#384

Post by bryondowd »

ghaff wrote: post #316
jackfraser wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or alternatively offering something like $100 for four hours to do lifestyle street shoots. I personally think that's not a terrible offer. $25/hour to stand around clicking pictures? It's a lot easier than most work people do for minimum wage, first, and secondly it's not like you have massive film costs or need a ton of technical knowledge anymore. 99% of the shots people want can be accomplished with stock or re…

>$25/hour to stand around clicking pictures? I'm going to assume good intent but that's an incredibly condescending remark. Just so you know. How about if I offer a trained developer $25/hour to write me some software? It's just sitting and typing.

Depends where you are. Pretty sure I've made under $25/hr most of my development career. And that was just fine, in the Atlantic City, NJ area, because the cost of living was pretty low and I had no interest in moving or commuting to a big city.

EDIT: Although I guess it might've been a bit more if you include the value of health insurance and such.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#385

Post by tathougies »

sageabilly wrote: post #9
lovetocode wrote: post #6

Game developers let themselves be exploited with low pay and unpaid overtime. They should grow a spine and say no to ridiculous work conditions. I am tired of hearing about it. They don’t need to unionize, they need to realize that they have a unique and valuable skill set. If we are talking specifically about programmers, we have the fortunate leverage to tell our employers to go piss up a rope with the weekly job o…

If every single employer has the same work conditions, then what? If the state of the industry as a whole is low pay and unpaid overtime, then it's not like a developer can just go to a better job.

Then don't be a game developer. Luckily, the skills are readily transferrable to all sorts of better paying specialties in software engineering

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#386

Post by tathougies »

hannasanarion wrote: post #34
jfk13 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a civilised society, it would be illegal for an employer to behave like that. (Yes, I know, I'm imposing my view of what it would mean to be "civilised", and not everyone will agree.)

There are plenty of countries where all employers are required to give certain notice, and you can't suddenly fire someone. It is outrageous that your ability to eat and pay rent can be taken away with zero notice in America.

Your ability to eat and pay rent should not be dependent on your income as a game developer. You know there are some professions where the pay is so low that yes, people really need to live paycheck to paycheck. Game developers do not, sorry.

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#387

Post by ketzo »

ahaferburg wrote: post #362
pslam wrote: post #353

It is appalling that the top 3 comments (at time of writing this one) are victim-blaming. "They should get better jobs". "There's a high demand so they should go elsewhere". "They should have known before they went there". Where have you been in the last few years, and how have you not learned anything about abusive practices which entrap people? These companies are basically abusive — they abuse their staff with lon…

Unionization is never going to happen, and won't have much benefit. Excessive overtime and crunch need to be outlawed. It's not a matter of whether or not it's paid, beyond a certain threshold it's a question of health. Nothing will change until people start suing. If companies can just abuse and then terminate people once their lives are ruined, they will continue to do so.

Just out of curiosity, which people (or perhaps, organizations) do you think first pushed for overtime laws in the U.S.?

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#388

Post by tathougies »

NaNtales wrote: post #130
bubblewrap wrote: post #46

They are not being exploited. They are free to take on another job. Especially coders could certainly find jobs in other industries. And "Fortnite" is not the games industry. There are a variety of ways to make a living making games.

Of course you can stop being exploited as a game developer by leaving the games industry---but why should people be forced to change their career in order to avoid exploitation?

> but why should people be forced to change their career in order to avoid exploitation?

You've got to be kidding, right?

Re: Making Video Games Is Not a Dream Job

#390

Post by rossdavidh »

DangitBobby wrote: post #273
rossdavidh wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fact that they can get unpaid work, means they don't need to pay for it. Why pay for 10 people when you can get 5 to do it? No matter how little you pay for labor, free (i.e. unpaid overtime) is cheaper.

Which is why, in this case, unionization isn't just (to paraphrase) ignoring that there's not enough demand. One intended result is that it would forcibly remove the option of externalizing the consequences of intentionally under-utilizing the labor pool. It prevents bad behavior (behavior that should already be illegal IMO). Freely exploiting your workers because they have no bargaining power should always discourag…

While I certainly agree, the historical record suggests that unionization often requires a certain amount of labor scarcity in order to happen in the first place. Of course, enough scarcity and the workers won't see the need, perhaps because there isn't any, but in cases of superabundance of labor it is extraordinarily difficult (usually impossible) to successfully unionize.

I certainly agree that unions can make a big difference in the intermediate case.

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