A suicide crisis among veterinarians • Hacker News Board

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#441

Post by red-iron-pine » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 2:42 PM UTC

warner25 wrote: post #227

verteu wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My understanding is that after you adjust for demographics, because most service members are young males, the rate actually isn't higher, but the reality is what it is: we lose more people from suicide every year than combat operations. Interesting note, I didn't realize this. Apparently, demog-corrected military suicide rate was previously below civilians [1]. In a few recent years this may have reversed, per the…

Yes, that study is a good find. There are so many fascinating bits of information once you start looking at this topic below the surface. Another one that I remember learning is that the suicide rate among white troops is much higher than the rate among black troops; I have no idea why. Also, the rate is actually higher among troops who haven't been to deployed to combat. That might be an age thing (younger people ar…

getting into the infantry, at least in the US military, is non-trivial. entire generations have now grown up on Halo and Modern Warfare 2, and there are no shortages of wanna be trigger pullers. Meanwhile something like 1 in 11 troopers in the Army are combat arms -- you need a lot of logistics, mechanical, etc. bodies. Closer to 1 in 7 in the Marines, but still the majority aren't combat arms.

might be a different story in UKR, where they're grinding through troops and everyone is looking to be in the rear w/ the gear.

but that selection bias is definitely geared towards motivated combat troopers. meanwhile some kid from Missouri joins up thinking he's gonna get out of his shit town and learn computers or something but then spends 18 hours a day filtering water and fuel at a remote base in Germany for 4 years.

> Another one that I remember learning is that the suicide rate among white troops is much higher than the rate among black troops; I have no idea why.

depressed middle class white kid realizes he could have worked at Target while going to community college, and is now isolated doing a job he hates and can't quite for 3+ years. black kid is happy he doesn't have to go back to a worse situation.

also heard a statistic that hispanic recruits are more likely to make it though basic training and AIT / A-schools. hispanic paradox, military edition?

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#442

Post by Exuma » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

tpmoney wrote: post #421

Exuma wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok I will definitely do it then. How long did it take to not feel just truly awful? Like I said... Ive never experienced that much grief/pain from loss before. I am scared how bad it will be, or what to expect.

You will feel awful, it's normal. It sucks a lot. And it's part of loving someone or something that much. I've done it 3 times now. First time, it was probably a week or two before I stopped getting choked up or crying when I'd come around a corner expecting to see the dog, or hear the jingle of tags and it was just empty space. It was probably a month or so before it started feeling "normal" again, and we had a seco…

Oh man I just googled the rainbow bridge Im not ready to read that yet it hurts too much. Thank you so much for your reply, I know this isn't a long reply but just know I read each word, and it really helped me digest this, somehow knowing other people go through the same thing helps a bit, I'm not sure why

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#443

Post by r3trohack3r » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 4:04 PM UTC

lazide wrote: post #426

r3trohack3r wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, well if someone can't swing $200 they probably shouldn't own a pet. I'm not sure poor people not adopting pets would meaningfully change the rate at which pets are born. It just results in fewer pets being adopted. Particularly true if shelters fix pets before putting them up for adoption. Most animals that have been bred as pets over 1000s of years are no longer permitted to live without a human caretaker. I…

What gives you the impression these are adoptions?

Just an availability heuristic.

I grew up poor, by US standards at least, and everyone around me either adopted their pets from shelters or found them as strays on the street. All my pets have been either strays or from a shelter.

The only exception I can think of from my childhood were fish, I think those almost always came from a pet store, but fish tanks were very uncommon.

Even my Axolotl was a rescue, it was given to me in a Tupperware container full of pond water after its previous owner was unable to take care of it.

If you have anything that would suggest it’s common for people who can’t afford $200 in vet services to buy their pets from breeders, I’m open to learning.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#444

Post by myroon5 » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 4:06 PM UTC

Tiktaalik wrote: post #428

There is a number of policy solutions that the government can act on today that would directly help address this problem. At the core of this is a crisis of animal welfare which is related to the spiking cost of housing and poor economic conditions. No one has money for pet insurance and people are unable to move into apartments that allow pets, which results in abandoned animals and vets becoming animal executioners…

Unfortunately there's still much lower hanging fruit to pick for those looking to subsidize animal welfare than pet healthcare

Farm animals far outnumber pets with far worse conditions:

https://animalcharityevaluators.org/donation-advice/why-farm...

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#445

Post by ang_cire » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 4:12 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #298

ang_cire wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Me myself? Absolutely not. But yes, labor should have some means to be controlled for price, so that people cannot be underpaid or overpaid (as many are).

What is the formula for determining underpaid and overpaid?

"Tell me how to create a perfect society right now, otherwise you cannot critique this one."

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#446

Post by tim333 » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 5:54 PM UTC

swatcoder wrote: post #306

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hoping someone will pay for a procedure to save their pet's life while being braced for "I guess we should put them down..." I'm sorry, but vet costs are completely out of whack with reality these days. The truth of the matter is that most people cannot justify spending thousands of dollars on a pet, no matter how much they are loved, and that DOES NOT make them bad or unfit owners. The story quoted $10k to remove…

What do you expect surgery to cost? It's not like it was 1/10th the cost a while back and has suddenly became exploited by Big Veterinary or something. It was always expensive and you just wouldn't even ask unless you were especially wealthy or were unusually willing to sacrifice. What's changed (perhaps for the better) is the sense that pets are worth the sacrifice. If you're younger or from a more wealthy backgroun…

The last vet surgery I paid for was in Indonesia and it was like 100x. There isn't some law of physics that makes it cost that.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#447

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 6:33 PM UTC

ang_cire wrote: post #445

lotsofpulp wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the formula for determining underpaid and overpaid?

"Tell me how to create a perfect society right now, otherwise you cannot critique this one."

You proposed implementing price controls to “appropriately” allocate society’s resources.

Unless you have specifics, what value does your proposal have? It is trivial to wish for world peace.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#448

Post by Jka9rhnDJos » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 6:50 PM UTC

tasuki wrote: post #243

Jka9rhnDJos wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daughter wants more than anything to be a vet. Has talked about it for years. Reading more and more anecdotes and research about what it’s like being a veterinarian, I’m scared to continue encouraging her. We have a particularly medically-needy dog, and have spent $10k on procedures and vet visits over the past few years, and she’s really comfortable and familiar with being at the vet office. In my position, would…

> In my position, would you encourage your child to chase their dream? Or would you be comfortable telling them every few weeks until they gave up that you don’t think they should be a vet? Can't you do both? Let her know about the serious downsides (perhaps don't "repeat every few weeks until she gives up") and if she chooses it anyway, encourage her. This is her decision to make, not yours. She will be responsible…

She’s 8. She’s not responsible for much of anything. She’s not mentaly capable of being responsible for making future career decisions. If she said she wanted to be an authoritarian dictator, I’d crush that dream fast. But she wants to help animals. And being someone that she looks up to, it doesn’t take much for me to crush a dream. So do I start crushing that dream now (her wanting to be a vet comes up weekly, so either I would ignore it or have to keep reiterating my position), and ruin any chance of her becoming a vet, or do I let her invest years into it before telling her I think her career choice is a bad idea?

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#449

Post by barrysteve » Thu, Oct 12, 2023, 11:30 PM UTC

TerrifiedMouse wrote: post #287

Arrath wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > "There's an idea that veterinarians work on the belief that it's right to euthanise a hopeless case," says Volk, "and we are seeing ourselves, emotionally, as hopeless cases." Fuck me that is dark.

> Fuck me that is dark. I mean we all die eventually. It’s just a matter of when and how much joy and suffering will we encounter on the way. If you look at it as an optimization problem, dying early can be the better scenario. Frankly there are fates worse than death. To suffer for years before dying is just messed up. I hope that when I go it will be relatively quick. I can only hope it will be relatively painless…

You can be saved from fates worst than death. You're not forced to be saved from fates worse than death.

But you can be.

Faith is a failing concept in the West when people 'give up' to a predicted outcome.

Re: A suicide crisis among veterinarians

#450

Post by ang_cire » Fri, Oct 13, 2023, 2:25 AM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #447

ang_cire wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Tell me how to create a perfect society right now, otherwise you cannot critique this one."

You proposed implementing price controls to “appropriately” allocate society’s resources. Unless you have specifics, what value does your proposal have? It is trivial to wish for world peace.

Did I wake up in another world where this is a legislative body? We're all just posting our opinions. Just because you don't like mine doesn't put a higher burden of effort on me to post.

I'm sure no amount of specifics would convince you that's a good idea, just as no amount of your specifics would probably convince me otherwise. And that's fine.

I am under no obligation to provide you "value" in my posts.