A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#441

Post by yanderekko » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:35 PM UTC

karpierz wrote: post #294

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

On the other hand, there isn't any controversy as to whether blindness is a real condition.

Well, it's undoubtedly a condition but there are probably some who dispute whether it's a "disease" or "disability". This resistance is more commonly associated with the deaf community, and drawing parallels between this population and the trans population will get you in hot water pretty quickly..

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#442

Post by JonathonW » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:35 PM UTC

Kharvok wrote: post #314

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

The difference is that there aren't groups cheerleading the deconstruction of human sight because blind people exist.

I have no real visibility (pun not intended) into the blind community, but similar groups do exist in the Deaf community; Deafness-as-identity/culture is very much a thing and some of the general cultural views around adaptation and integration with the hearing world look not-dissimilar to what you see in some aspects of LGBTQ+ movements.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#443

Post by 762236 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:35 PM UTC

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

The problem is the suppression of reasoned speech. People are forbidden to discuss this topic. People in power (e.g., University Deans) use this topic to abuse those under their power. Students use it to abuse professors (e.g., students claim that they don't feel safe around a particular professor). In the name of trying to stop abuse of trans people, we're abusing non trans people (e.g, people get fired over this topic).

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#444

Post by klyrs » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:35 PM UTC

omginternets wrote: post #404

klyrs wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom to choose one's gender is a libertarian value. Would you rather the government pick one for you?

As I've said before: we agree on this point. Where we seem to disagree is on the question of whether government, employers or other institutional powers have the power to silence those who don't see it our way. If we do indeed disagree, then by definition you lean towards authoritarian politics. You are willing to go further than I in restricting freedom of expression to defend trans people. You may even be right, bu…

Woah there, you're putting a whole lot of assumptions on me. I'm not against the rights of white men being up for debate in the public sphere any more or less than the rights of transgender people.

But we live in an authoritarian system which limits the rights of transgender people by various means. It's better in the US than it is in the UK, which in turn is much better than Saudi Arabia. The Gender Critical folks want more authoritarianism. They want the government to decide your gender, and segregate transgender people from cisgender people.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#445

Post by makeworld » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:36 PM UTC

HideousKojima wrote: post #430

makeworld wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't violent men just enter these bathrooms or dress up as women anyway? Rape is already a crime, no matter what gender you are. I don't see what a bathroom bill would meaningfully solve. Plus bathroom bills have already been shown to force trans men into women's washrooms.

Sure they still can, but without such a bill the women in the bathroom can't take actions like calling security until the man actually starts doing something violent/criminal/creepy/whatever. With such a bill their mere presence is enough.

What if that man turns out to be a trans man, who's just obeying the bathroom bill?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#446

Post by throwaway284534 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:36 PM UTC

teakettle42 wrote: post #271

throwaway284534 wrote: post #36

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

> They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one presents in both dress and phenotype. If you were responsible for compiling a dictionary, what is the accurate definition of "woman" that you would provide?

I must admit that I’m apprehensive to give an answer given this thread’s…liveliness, but I’ll do my best.

“Woman” describes a collection of chromosomal and phenological traits observed within an ongoing and temporal culture lens. A human is often perceived as a woman when she simultaneously embodies a variety of these traits, especially so when those traits contrast that which is considered male.

Much like the concept of feminism, consensus on what is and isn’t in these categories continues to evolve as it’s observed and informed by the experienced of both genders.

I can understand why a definition like this wouldn’t be as satisfying as something more concrete and well, definitive.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#447

Post by robocat » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:37 PM UTC

plank_time wrote: post #364

MyHypatia wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…

In the UK prisons, transgender women sexually assault women 5x more than cis women sexually assault women. https://archive.is/iYD5T

From article:

“there were 125 trans prisoners in 2017, 60 of whom were serving sentences for sexual offences. Of those 60, 27 were serving a prison sentence for rape.” which is more shocking than your 5x statistic. Note the 5x statistic appears weak to me because “Between 2016 and 2020, there were seven sexual assaults [reported] against females in women's prisons by trans women.”.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#448

Post by FemmeAndroid » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:37 PM UTC

dvt wrote: post #355

9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't mean to downplay what is happening because it is happening but do you not think the amount of outrage this topic generates surpasses the level of impact we can have assuming we fix it? It just feels like we're being distracted. But downplaying it is exactly what you are doing, literally. To answer your main question, though: the very small community that we are talking about is disproportionately being subj…

> disproportionately being subjected to murder, physical abuse, emotional abuse, and widespread discrimination. This is provably untrue. Not that it isn't a tragedy, but in 2020, 44 trans people were killed[1] in the US. This is a rounding error even when looking at "merely" just hate crime statistics (for example, in 2019, the FBI reported ~7000 criminal offenses[2] in the "hate crime" category). I get it, people ar…

> Not that it isn't a tragedy, but in 2020, 44 trans people were killed[1] in the US. This is a rounding error even when looking at "merely" just hate crime statistics

I'm confused. How can you compare 44 deaths to 7000 offenses? (Including 55 deaths, across all hate crimes.)

I'm not arguing that trans people are disproportionately killed or assaulted, but that we are in no way a rounding error.

Using your source, the 2019 FBI report:

Of the 8,559 criminal offenses, 51 were Murder and nonnegligent manslaughter.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2019/topic-pages/tables/table...

224 offenses were based on Gender Identity, this includes 173 Anti-transgender offenses, and 51 Anti-Gender Non-Conforming offenses. 342 offenses not included in those numbers we’re targeting “Anti-Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, or Transgender (Mixed Group)”

5 of the 51 Murders and Nonnegligent Manslaugters were perpetrated because the victim was in the group "Anti-Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, or Transgender (Mixed Group)".

1 of the 51 Murders and Nonnegligent Manslaughters were perpetrated on the basis of Gender Identity.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2019/topic-pages/tables/table...

5 of the 30 rapes as hate crimes, were perpetrated on the basis of the victim's Gender Identity.

1 of the 30 rapes as hate crimes were perpetrated because the victim was in the group "Anti-Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, or Transgender (Mixed Group)".

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#449

Post by JohnBooty » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:37 PM UTC

a1369209993 wrote: post #410

JohnBooty wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not know anything about the subject of the linked article, nor her views. Did not venture past the pay/registration wall. I have no opinion about her. zero-tolerance to anybody questioning the current dogma is seen everywhere Generally, of course dogma should be questioned. However, academic freedom does not mean that universities must provide a platform to literally anybody that wants one. Their resources are f…

> Their resources are finite and choices need to be made. By your own description[0][1], choices had already been made, and resources had already been committed. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27609417 1: > Jo Phoenix, a professor of criminology at Britain's Open University, was due to give a talk at Essex University

Yes. Decisions are made all the time. Sometimes they are reconsidered and sometimes even reversed. That is not inherently a bad thing, particularly when new information comes to light subsequent to the initial decision.

What are you getting at? I can guess, but these things work better if we don't make assumptions or guesses about what others are saying.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#450

Post by bluGill » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:38 PM UTC

HideousKojima wrote: post #320

Rebelgecko wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO bringing statistical likelihoods into it is a dangerous road to go down and could lead to some seriously problematic outcomes. For example, what if people in certain socioeconomic groups are more likely to commit rape? Or people of certain ethnicities? Would it make sense to require them to use separate bathrooms? Or is it only ok to slice and dice the stats based on certain characteristics? To me it's kind of a…

My rule for any of these things are all or nothing, in the margins lie chaos. I think a private business should be able to have as many or as few bathrooms for as many categories and groups as they feel like. But if you're going to block them from doing that, you'd better block them from splitting up bathrooms on any basis, otherwise all sorrs of special interest groups and lobbying groups will be looking to make spe…

All bathrooms should be a single private stall, first come first serve. If you need more than one stall, then install them.

On average females take twice as long males in the bathroom. Sometimes some events have a disproportionate ratio of male/females. Both are evidence that having the same number of stalls for each of the two genders is wrong - even before talk about more than two genders.