Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 1001 posts

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#271

Post by teakettle42 »

throwaway284534 wrote: post #36

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

> They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one presents in both dress and phenotype.

If you were responsible for compiling a dictionary, what is the accurate definition of "woman" that you would provide?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#272

Post by ssully »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #230
smoldesu wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was ironically one of the things that was hardest about coming out as gay, for me. Nobody ever treated me the same way again. I was either uncomfortably praised or silently judged, with practically no in-between. Suffice to say, my sexuality is on a need-to-know basis, now.

It's weird to me that sexuality and identity are so intertwined. Why should someone "come out" as anything? (I know a lot of people "come out" as various things in a mere bid for attention... I'll leave that issue aside.) If I knew someone casually for a while who never talked about his/her sexuality, but one day they said "I never said this before, but I'm a heterosexual", I'd certainly feel awkward about it. Why di…

Because it is something they felt the need to repress for a potentially long portion of their life. Coming out is the start of a process to release the pressure that has built up from that repression and letting the person's personal view of themselves realign with the public view of themselves.

Also, yes it is weird that sexuality and identity are intertwined, but that is not something that is new and it is something that is tied to all sexualities, including heterosexuals.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#273

Post by yuy910616 »

motohagiography wrote: post #147

One shouldn't expect courage from The Economist, but it's always wise to bet on their prudence. I don't read The Economist for facts or details so much as to get a sense of what topics a current establishment can no longer afford to ignore. The details are secondary to the neccessity that a writer, a sub-editor, and a senior editor with tremendous personal stake in maintaining access to the circles that define establ…

Can't agree more - on both of your points.

It is interesting to look at the Economist like their BigMac index - an encapsulation of something complex that is weirdly reliable

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#274

Post by weakfish »

maybeOneDay wrote: post #183
throwaway894345 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, I like that we discuss controversial topics here if only because it's the only online forum I'm aware of where this stuff can be discussed with any degree of productive dialogue or without a constant barrage of bad faith (which isn't to say there aren't bad faith commenters here, but the signal/noise ratio is much higher here).

In my experience browsing HN almost daily, over the last year it has become something of an echo chamber for "anti woke" lines of thinking. I've seen little to no healthy discussion on the topic - by which I mean productive disagreement. It's usually just a top comment decrying twitter/etc and then a pile on of agreement.

I'm in the same boat. Its a bit tiresome and I feel it's getting worse (?)

Fwiw, current college student. My school isn't particularly "woke" beyond having a LGBT support center, but that strikes me as common decency rather than wokeness.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#275

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

maybeOneDay wrote: post #183
throwaway894345 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, I like that we discuss controversial topics here if only because it's the only online forum I'm aware of where this stuff can be discussed with any degree of productive dialogue or without a constant barrage of bad faith (which isn't to say there aren't bad faith commenters here, but the signal/noise ratio is much higher here).

In my experience browsing HN almost daily, over the last year it has become something of an echo chamber for "anti woke" lines of thinking. I've seen little to no healthy discussion on the topic - by which I mean productive disagreement. It's usually just a top comment decrying twitter/etc and then a pile on of agreement.

I disagree with this only because I frequently get downvoted for comments that don't "fit the narrative." Could I be a little less brash in the way I word it? Sure, but I keep vulgarities at a minimum to at least come across as somewhat refined.

People like me are very much liberal, left leaning, and dislike fascism. But as of now, it feels like freedom of speech is more of "freedom to speak about only certain things." Simply because so many people are kowtowing to these zealots. Of course you're going to get more vocal people opposed to this line of thinking. It's the exact same thing left leaning people like myself got away from in our psychotic religious upbringings. Only for us to see the exact same thing on the left, but with even more drastic and unfair measures.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#276

Post by mike00632 »

omginternets wrote: post #179
mike00632 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel the same way about nicknames? If you call someone by a nickname that they don't like and they let you know they prefer their own name then do you consider it too onerous to defer to them about it?

Do you think legislators and employers should get involved in decisions about nicknames? If so, that would make you some sort of authoritarian. And this is what the debate is really about: authoritarian vs libertarian political attitudes. I’m certainly ready to have that debate, but it would require the “woke left” [0] to abandon the moral high-ground. [0] There’s surely a better term to use, but I can’t think of it…

My point was that this is not about how personally difficult it is for you to respect someone else's preferences. It's actually very easy and we do it all the time for other things, like nicknames. If you're so against trans people having similar status as you then you shouldn't claim that it's because trans people are causing you a burden.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#277

Post by [deleted] »

mabub24 wrote: post #20

One thing I find quite odd is how the study of gender emerged out of an approach that demanded a critical understanding of assumptions and the things society insist upon (that there are only 2 genders, that gender is essentially related to biological sex rather than something that is manifest in social behaviour, ect.) and yet that view has twisted into a sort of all or nothing view that is extremely antagonistic to…

[deleted]

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#278

Post by MyHypatia »

jolux wrote: post #242
MyHypatia wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think housing intact trans-women in single occupant cells in women's prisons is a reasonable middle ground. The trans-women are in a space that affirms their gender identity, but it does not require cis-women to share a cell with someone who can rape and impregnate them.

Cis women rape other cis women too, and not all trans women can impregnate people.

These are true statements. Cis-women can be raped and impregnated by people with penises is also a true statement. Perhaps the complete solution is to house all in-mates in separate cells regardless of sex or gender. I do not think that creating situations where female prisoners can be sexually assaulted and impregnated by their cell mate is a positive step forward.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#279

Post by watwut »

xupybd wrote: post #137
mike00632 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel the same way about nicknames? If you call someone by a nickname that they don't like and they let you know they prefer their own name then do you consider it too onerous to defer to them about it?

This is common in many of the team sports I've played in. The more someone hates their nickname the more likely it will stick. Generally it's only done with close friends.

It is also done with people you want to bully. Also, this mocking relationship is very often one way instead of symmetric.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#280

Post by postmodernbrute »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #97
postmodernbrute wrote: post #91

Right. Another loud article published on a very mainstream media about how a very established academic is being silenced and prevented from "debate". I wonder, if one collates all the articles on British media about transgender people, how many of them would actually concern the daily experiences of real transgender people, versus how many that consist of an established writer complaining loudly that they have been s…

To put it bluntly, this is irrelevant. You put "debate" in quotes like it's somehow a dirty word, which is shocking and depressing to me. I DO care about what real transgender people have to say, and to be honest, especially on college campuses in the US, it is very easy to see they have a voice and are able to speak there opinion. I have no idea whether this academic's opinion is one I agree with. Primarily because…

She was allowed to speak far more than any trans people has been allowed to speak - she is speaking on The Economist. I do not see any trans people speaking on The Economist. The same applies across the entirety of published British media. That you willfully ignore this epistemological injustice, does not render it irrelevant.

The university ground is one of the very few places where real transgender people, along with other socially marginalised groups, are generally allowed to speak, and allowed to speak for themselves. They are particularly visible on campus, precisely because they are effectly not allowed to speak in other places. Such as The Economist and other print media.

And yes, certain "debates" are quite dirty. Debates are not neutral fields of free intellectual inquiry, but potent manifestation of prevailing epistemological injustices. It is shocking and depressing, that certain people must again and again defend their own existence in "debates" premised on a claim to the absurdity of their condition. It is shocking and depressing, that sincere experiences of trans people are not taken, but rather must be put under the forensic lens of "debate" to be constantly challenged and invalidated. These "debates" are dirty constructs, serving as a powerful mechanism of collective gaslighting.

Post reply on HN