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Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

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Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#431

Post by giantg2 »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #373
giantg2 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Finland has the highest rates of detention per 100 000 inhabitants, about 214 compared with 93 in the UK ..." Wow those numbers seem high if they're counting unique people and not admissions and re-admisisons.

I think there is a bit of nuance to this. The UK also has about 500 or so homeless people per 100000 inabitants. In the US the number of people in prisons is about that number per 100K. On top of their huge homeless problem. There is the brutal reality that the climate in Finland and being homeless are not a great combination in the winter. And the summers are short. Getting people off the streets saves lives. If it'…

So are they committing people who are drunk? That would explain why the number is so high, but that also seems like overkill.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#432

Post by HPsquared »

chgs wrote: post #420
throw5959 wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be viewed as a housing supply issue.

Doesn’t matter how much money in the system, if there are 100 homes and 110 people, ten will be homeless.

"People per house" is not a fixed number.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#433

Post by giantg2 »

chgs wrote: post #422
giantg2 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Finland has the highest rates of detention per 100 000 inhabitants, about 214 compared with 93 in the UK ..." Wow those numbers seem high if they're counting unique people and not admissions and re-admisisons.

It’s 966 in Florida https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ps.201900477

Yeah, this article seems to be measuring detentions, including short term holds (different than longterm commitments), but not unique by person. So it's detentions per population vs unique people detained per population. I assume there is a high recurrence rate.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#434

Post by fsloth »

andrewla wrote: post #92

Without digging too deep into the nature of the statistics they use, I'm a little skeptical of this. The transition to using the word "homeless" has resulted in transforming something we can't easily measure -- "drug addicted or mentally ill people being a public menace" -- into something that we can measure -- "people without a good living arrangement". Sure, the latter is important in a lot of ways too. And there h…

Speaking as a Finn.

It's foremost NOT about mental&substance issues treatment but general financial aid to anyone in need.

I think this phraze from the article summarizes it well.

"The Finnish experience demonstrates the effectiveness of tackling homelessness through a combination of financial assistance, integrated and targeted support services and more supply: "

It's a holistic system that actually kicks-in way before one is in danger of being homeless, and if someone would suddenly find themselves homeless, the state security blanket is available to all. So 1. direct assistance 2. support services and 3. supply.

On the first order, this is not related to substance abuse or mental illness, and should not be viewed as such. They are just a way to make sure nobody freezes to death.

The way these policies link with mental&substance issues is that before 90's you were denied housing if you had ongoing substance abuse issues. This policy was dialed back to allow all housing regardless of any other issues, specifically because it was considered being homeless does not help in any way to resolve the above matters.

So viewing this as "something only for ill people" is the wrong lens. It's a system for everyone. Of course mentally ill and those suffering substance issue are often without financial means so they are represented in the population receiving support.

But the actual treatment to the above issues is a separate policy matter (after nobody was excluded anymore).

The downside is that unless a polity has similar wide cover social security system in place, I have no idea what learnings you could get from this.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#435

Post by nikitaga »

SequoiaHope wrote: post #364
wat10000 wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A business center doesn't have to be expensive. That’s made to happen because housing isn’t allowed to be built in sufficient quantity, not a necessary consequence of success.

I think quantity is a valid concern but I also think treating housing as a speculative asset is an issue. Housing serves as a valuable speculative asset precisely because quantity is restricted by a variety of factors, but actually using it as a speculative asset raises prices significantly.

Just saying "speculation" doesn't really paint the picture of what's going on. In 2010-s everyone here blamed foreign speculators hiding in the shadows, but we live in a different, worse, world now.

This country's housing and immigration & temp. resident policies are absolutely out of sync, intentionally. In 2021 they've changed the rules to add hundreds of thousands of people overnight, but did not build anywhere close to the corresponding amount of housing. Then they did it next year again, and again, and again, and they're still doing it, and the next government plans to continue doing it.

This isn't mere speculation. This is deliberate policy to manufacture a housing crisis. To not only keep the pre-existing crisis going, but to deliberately and methodically escalate it. Politicians profit both from their own investment properties and from bribes (ahem campaign contributions, speaking fees, board positions, ...) paid to them by all kinds of businesses who profit from oversupply of labour and undersupply of housing.

"Speculation" implies taking significant risk, often in an under-regulated market. But the current situation is nothing like that – there is barely any risk, when both the supply (zoning & construction) and demand (population growth) sides of the market are heavily regulated with the intent to raise prices. Capital is all you need to reap the profits, pretty much.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#436

Post by fsloth »

vasco wrote: post #192
mmooss wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming others share your perspective and understanding. > The transition to using the word "homeless" has resulted in transforming something we can't easily measure -- "drug addicted or mentally ill people being a public menace" -- into something that we can measure -- "people without a good living arrangement". > the former is the actual problem that we care about The word homeless is pretty old, not someth…

> I spend a lot of time in cities and know others who do too. None feel menaced by people who are unhoused - why would that be menacing? - or high. High people generally don't know you are there, and are easily avoided. I've had zero problems; I don't know of anyone else who has This is completely detached from reality. I find it hard to believe you are being truthful unless you're doing some sort of gotcha where you…

In Finland, "homeless" actually means "homeless". We don't mean "people suffering mental illness and substance abuse issues". So that's the background for the article.

I recently visited NYC and understand your specific angle, but "homeless" actually can just mean "person without a home" without connotations of mental issues or substance abuse.

There are extreme cases where people willfully live under bridges or something but that's super rare.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#437

Post by oriolid »

giantg2 wrote: post #431
jillesvangurp wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a bit of nuance to this. The UK also has about 500 or so homeless people per 100000 inabitants. In the US the number of people in prisons is about that number per 100K. On top of their huge homeless problem. There is the brutal reality that the climate in Finland and being homeless are not a great combination in the winter. And the summers are short. Getting people off the streets saves lives. If it'…

So are they committing people who are drunk? That would explain why the number is so high, but that also seems like overkill.

No, drunk people who do stupid shit or have passed out in public are just locked up for night and then let go unless they injured or killed someone.

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#438

Post by lifestyleguru »

skirge wrote: post #418
lifestyleguru wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now consider that most homeless in Poland are male. There _exist_ people who never had family, or ruthless real estate grabbers who'd rather have real estate for themselves and a homeless family member. > people removed from homes for domestic violence by court (divorce) This is classic why the husband moves out, have you ever dealt with family courts as a male in Poland, nothing rings the bell for you? So a male hom…

there are many organisations and individuals who will help you, if you are sober and non-violent, actually everyone will like cheap workforce - I know few cases like that, someone taken from street to farm or similar.

Neither what you mention is working in reality, sorry. Cheap workforce? Yeah you will be exploited physically, and paid something or rather nothing. Social benefits? These are usurped by various professional groups and institutions are plagued with nepotism. Poland delegated its homelessness to Germany and Netherlands while it's pretending to be a state with 5% unemployment and without housing crisis. Your attitude is a pristine example of selfish well off part of the society. How many apartments do you own?

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#439

Post by 15155 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #39
ipaddr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US could end homelessness but would need to stop immigration and change the constitution which could force people in shelter. Not sure it's the outcome we all want.

> US could end homelessness but would need to stop immigration and change the constitution which could force people in shelter Immigrants are a tiny fraction of the homeless [1]. And we’ve tried criminalising homelessness; incarceration is forced shelter and incredibly expensive. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30739834/

What impact do you suppose this population has on housing costs?

Re: Finland's zero homeless strategy (2021)

#440

Post by [deleted] »

mlsu wrote: post #428
SequoiaHope wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Relative scarcity is the necessary and sufficient condition. Either there's enough housing or there isn't This seems like an oversimplification. Speculation affects demand, so the amount of speculation is hidden within “relative scarcity”. If there is no speculation then demand is directly related to the needs and finances of potential occupants. If there is speculation then demand becomes connected to the buying p…

Yes, but this speculation is grounded on the possibility of extracting future rents. Which is an assumption about future relative scarcity. We’ve all decided that it’s totally fine to artificially limit the supply of real estate. Speculation is the market (correctly, in most cases) betting that that will continue.

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