Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#431

Post by pishpash » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:01 AM UTC

sixothree wrote: post #214

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

Also, doesn't Lyft require drivers to have an Lyft sign on their car?

It's the government that requires a trade dress: https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/tncinfo/

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#432

Post by logicchains » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:06 AM UTC

chillwaves wrote: post #309

_fq4v wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the industrial revolution in retrospect has clearly improved the lot of the entire world, comparing uber to the capitalists of the industrial revolution in attempt to castigate them is actually quite laughable.

Those industrialist were doing a great job of putting children in factories!

Before that, children (and their families) were doing backbreaking labour on farms. At least the factories paid better.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#433

Post by pishpash » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:10 AM UTC

jschwartzi wrote: post #247

dmode wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is that driver’s want to remain independent, but their cost is borne by the society. Such as the recent CAREs act had unemployment for drivers. I am assuming they also get subsidized healthcare, and would be eligible for Medicare ? Their employers don't really contribute to these things. But perhaps the law should just have complied them to contribute via additional taxes instead of asking them to…

If you're an IC, you have to pay Self-Employment Tax to cover the employer's part of the payroll tax deductions. Plus you're also liable for all the usual payroll taxes. That burden doesn't go away just because you get a 1099 instead of a W-2. So it's the drivers who are in theory paying in to healthcare subsidies and Medicare.

Taxes are on earnings after top-of-the-line deductions for business expenses including gas and depreciation that they'd lose on the W-2. Drivers aren't stupid as you think.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#434

Post by monadic2 » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:14 AM UTC

dcftoapv wrote: post #332

monadic2 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blame the corrupt officials that enabled this, you can hardly blame a union for trying to act in their own self interest. They don't represent you but the city does.

I'll continue to blame the minority interests that are doing everything possible to keep LA transportation stuck in the stone ages, thank you.

I mean sure but to what end?

Regardless, you couldn't have this effect without the corrupt politicians that ARE supposed to represent your interests, unlike the taxi union. What's the point of raging at perfectly understandable lobbying?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#435

Post by jeffbee » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:16 AM UTC

kyle_martin1 wrote: post #426

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

I worked for SuperShuttle developing their driver mobile app. I can tell you for a fact that a big reason SuperShuttle failed is because the drivers were independent. They would consistently reject low cost trips and wait it out until they got one "mega" trip so that they only need to actually work for about 3 hours/day. Some days they wouldn't take any trips, just hang out in the van playing Flappy Bird. This was a…

This is what we call "revealed preference". It doesn't really matter what ten thousand Uber drivers have told you (and some of the supposed first-hand field surveying claimed in this discussion stretches belief). The only thing that matters in the end is how the participants in the market actually behave.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#436

Post by ericd » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:17 AM UTC

coldpie wrote: post #256

orangecat wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying that freelancing and independent contracting should not be permitted under any circumstances? Is there no sufficient amount of money where you'd acknowledge that workers are not being exploited in a fee-for-service structure? And what about small business owners, who effectively have zero paid leave or vacation?

> are you saying that freelancing and independent contracting [and small business owners] should not be permitted under any circumstances It's a good question and I'm not sure. I think my answer is some weak form of "yes." My goal is to enforce a good work-life balance, I think society benefits from a healthy workforce. So they wouldn't be impermissible per se, but they should meet those same requirements. However, o…

I wouldn't use France as a model for economic regulations. I love the country, but its economy isn't one of its strong areas. Ironically, many companies in France primarily hire contractors now because of the many onerous regulations around employees. One of Macron's big pushes has been to try to make the French economy more competitive by stripping some of that out, but it's obviously been controversial.

Also, why should a bureaucrat tell me what the appropriate work-life balance is, as an independent contractor? I'll decide that balance for myself, based on my life situation, thanks.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#437

Post by jeffbee » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:22 AM UTC

EpicEng wrote: post #424

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

>Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform... As a contractor I can set my rate, but the company can also simply not hire me. As a contractor I can act as I wish, but the company can terminate my contract. As a contractor, I pay for my unemployment insurance if I want it. So... What's the practical difference? How is this any different than someone who decides to make a livin…

If your contract can be terminated at any time without cause, that supports the notion that you're an employee, not a contractor. That's one of the aspects of the Borello test.

https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_independentcontractor.htm

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#438

Post by billfruit » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:23 AM UTC

senderista wrote: post #328

Consultant32452 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like there is a general pattern. The left tends to prioritize all the good ideas: gender equality, racial equality, income gaps, etc. The right tends to prioritize systems that actually function in the real world with real people who are sometimes jealous, stupid, unethical, liars, etc. This is just a case where the first group has run amok without talking to the second group. It's the good idea of everyone sh…

There's a difference between being skeptical of idealistic schemes and fetishizing the status quo, which is what I think the right predominantly does.

In this case it is the Left that seems to want the status quo ante of the situation before Uber, Lyft. Uber, Lyft etc surely tried innovation in the system to the benefit of consumers and now some in left seems to want the very inefficient in place for the decades before needs to be reinstated.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#439

Post by rayhendricks » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:27 AM UTC

_jal wrote: post #360

brian_cloutier wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or the ridesharing businesses. The state could also pay for it, through tax revenue. Unemployment insurance seems like a great fit for a government, since any kind of massive correlated unemployment, as we're experiencing now, would absolutely wipe out any private insurer.

And that is the way it works, in functional countries. And I absolutely agree, divorcing healthcare from employment is the single best thing the US could do to help fix several different issues. But "We could massively restructure the US economy" is only an answer to "how should rideshare employees be classified" if you want to ensure nothing changes.

More specifically we need to totally decouple health insurance from employment. This is not post-ww2 anymore. No more Cadillac plans from FAANG companies either unless your paying for it out of your own pocket.

This would immediately solve half of the problems with healthcare in this country if everyone had to use the health insurance exchanges to buy insurance.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#440

Post by skybrian » Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 2:28 AM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #354

skybrian wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens in practice is that people try to make ends meet with two or three crappy part-time jobs, because that's all they can find. (Insert plug for UBI here.)

Passing laws to eliminate crappy jobs doesn't magically make non-crappy jobs come into existence. Unsure where UBI comes into the picture either since UBI also does not make non-crappy jobs magically come into existence.

It doesn't solve anything, but having an income stream that's not connected with your job should help make crappy jobs livable, and also increase bargaining power for workers, due to having better alternatives.

Also, increased spending does tend to result in more jobs, at least in normal times.