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Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

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Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#241

Post by ojagodzinski »

iaabtpbtpnn wrote: post #230

They're lucky to have that judge. Uber and Lyft have consistently flaunted the law with a basic attitude of "screw you, our service is too popular, if you try to regulate us out of existence then your constituents will be madder at you than us". But right now, the service is not popular at all. I was a relatively heavy user of Uber and I haven't even thought about calling one in months. Food delivery sure, but I don'…

> who wants to sit in an Uber with a stranger, breathing each other's air?

XD There are countries (like any other country then US) that have something called PUBLIC TRANSPORT. And people use is every day regardless of pandemic.

> The ride-sharing economy has just evaporated

Uber is still much more "healthier" than public transport.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#242

Post by orangecat »

coldpie wrote: post #166
orangecat wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: is your main complaint the low pay, or lack of benefits? If Uber increased pay to an average of $30/hour after expenses but still treated them as contractors and told them to buy their own health insurance, would you be ok with that?

Both. I'm not an employment law expert, but things like mandatory breaks, working conditions, PTO (pa/maternal leave, etc.). If you work a full time job, you are entitled to a comfortable life with a healthy work/life balance.

Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying that freelancing and independent contracting should not be permitted under any circumstances? Is there no sufficient amount of money where you'd acknowledge that workers are not being exploited in a fee-for-service structure?

And what about small business owners, who effectively have zero paid leave or vacation?

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#243

Post by fooker »

ttymck wrote: post #221
mehrdadn wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Does the model of IC have to imply that every ride is a new, independent contract? Is there no other reasonable model in which multiple rides are part of one contract? Why?

What does the alternative look like? A contract for 10 rides? A contract for one week at a time? What if the driver wants to serve one ride, and then never again: what contract models allow that single ride to fulfill a "contract"?

Contracts can be pretty arbitrary. "Independent contractor -- except can't turn down a ride."

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#244

Post by iaabtpbtpnn »

ojagodzinski wrote: post #241
iaabtpbtpnn wrote: post #230

They're lucky to have that judge. Uber and Lyft have consistently flaunted the law with a basic attitude of "screw you, our service is too popular, if you try to regulate us out of existence then your constituents will be madder at you than us". But right now, the service is not popular at all. I was a relatively heavy user of Uber and I haven't even thought about calling one in months. Food delivery sure, but I don'…

> who wants to sit in an Uber with a stranger, breathing each other's air? XD There are countries (like any other country then US) that have something called PUBLIC TRANSPORT. And people use is every day regardless of pandemic. > The ride-sharing economy has just evaporated Uber is still much more "healthier" than public transport.

I am posting from the Bay Area, we have public transit here too. Not as good as other countries, but it's normally quite popular. My girlfriend actually works for the transit agency. And right now, let me tell you, they are completely fucked. Ticket revenue is down something like 95%. Nobody wants to be on BART or Caltrain right now. (Although it's worth noting, here specifically the trains are typically used by people who also have a private car that they could take instead if they choose.)

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#245

Post by strbean »

marcinzm wrote: post #157
square90 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CARES Act and state-level programs are paying unemployment assistance to contractors and self-employed individuals not usually covered by unemployment [0], [1]. [0] https://www.edd.ca.gov/about_edd/coronavirus-2019/pandemic-u... [1] https://www.edd.ca.gov/about_edd/coronavirus-2019/cares-act....

Which is a one-off "world is burning down" case which no one planned for or expected. Hardy a long term plan by the VCs to take advantage of everyone else. I'm guessing unemployment insurance didn't cover a lot of the rest of the unemployed either for COVID (as it ran out due to never being designed for this situation) so it came from taxes. In which case no one paid into the social safety net except through taxes (w…

I think we just need a way for unemployment insurance to include independent contractors.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#246

Post by jkarneges »

apsec112 wrote: post #147
JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want to stay independent, fine. Then actually treat them like independent contractors. Let them set rates. Let them decline rides without facing penalties by the platform. Make the changes necessary to fit the independent contractor model. And not just the rideshare company, but the state too: these workers need unemployment insurance, as Covid has shown, and somebody needs to pay for it: be it the workers or th…

Uber and Lyft already did this in California after the passage of AB5 earlier this year. That's why they now have price estimates instead of giving exact values ahead of time.

Indeed Uber allows drivers to set fares in California. I'm not sure if that's true of Lyft though?

https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/Uber-to-Lyft-Yo...

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#247

Post by jschwartzi »

dmode wrote: post #188
serjester wrote: post #99

Completely anecdotal but I bring this question up every time I drive in an Uber and overwhelmingly the drivers tell me they want to stay independent. No one is forcing drivers into their jobs. I really struggle to understand why we need bureaucrats imposing their idea of what a market should look like on an fairly efficient market. From my experience the drivers are perfectly aware of the costs that go into driving s…

I think the problem is that driver’s want to remain independent, but their cost is borne by the society. Such as the recent CAREs act had unemployment for drivers. I am assuming they also get subsidized healthcare, and would be eligible for Medicare ? Their employers don't really contribute to these things. But perhaps the law should just have complied them to contribute via additional taxes instead of asking them to…

If you're an IC, you have to pay Self-Employment Tax to cover the employer's part of the payroll tax deductions. Plus you're also liable for all the usual payroll taxes. That burden doesn't go away just because you get a 1099 instead of a W-2. So it's the drivers who are in theory paying in to healthcare subsidies and Medicare.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#248

Post by solutron »

This is a symptom of the core, underlying problem. The coupling between employer, employee and health care needs to be undone. Employers aren't healthcare providers, we don't need additional middle-men and bureaucracy dictating, by proxy, how people receive care and from who. Universal healthcare would let Uber and Lyft continue to do what their primary focus is, and drivers would be able to do whatever they want work-wise and not have to worry about its affect on their ability to receive healthcare at an affordable price.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#249

Post by the-dude »

jon-wood wrote: post #87
hammock wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says driving for Uber/Lyft should be a full-time job, or statutorily viable as a full-time job? If you consider it only as a second or third job, then it makes a lot more sense that your second or third job is not going to pay as well or have the same benefits as your first job. Those aspects would be expected and reasonable. The low-risk, high-reward jobs fill your primary job slot, then you seek other options a…

That you don’t bat an eyelid at people needing a second or third job to make ends meet is in itself an indictment of the general state of the US.

I was amazed at the series Breaking Bad, that a teacher would take a summer job to make ends meet. At a carwash no less.

I have brought this up here before and got all kinds of justifications : he has a big house, he has a special needs kid.

I don't think there is any teacher in NL taking summer jobs to make ends meet.

Re: Uber and Lyft shutdown in California averted as judge grants emergency stay

#250

Post by throwawaygh »

fsociety wrote: post #200
sneak wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon pays more in payroll taxes, SUI, and Social Security alone than the entire revenue of the vast majority of any company you could select in the world.

Doesn’t Uber pay all that too? I feel like I’m missing the point.

No, not for its drivers.
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