Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#431

Post by jachee » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:44 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #324

Noos wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by great you mean "great for malware makers" I guess so. HN has a big problem of pushing for changes hat benefit highly tech-literate people but in reality the majority of the market needs signed apps so they don't download harmful programs. I think people need to stop looking at their own immediate interests and start considering long term aspects of things. You can't just throw out technology now without underst…

Perhaps if running unsigned apps became more widespread, businesses will spring up in the space to offer secure, curated apps as third-party app stores. Desktop software, for a long time, did not have the notion of specialized app stores or enforcing signed programs. Yes, Windows has loads of security issues. But surely this can be a problem that can be solved over time?

Why would John Q. Public trust a third party over the manufacturer of their device?

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#432

Post by ctvo » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:45 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #418

ctvo wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have access to information the rest of us don't? Apple doesn't release the operational details of its AppStore in its financial disclosures. Shocking you know a 10% fee isn't enough to maintain it. How about we do what's often suggested: we spin the AppStore off as its own non-profit governing body and they can disclose their operating costs and increase / decrease their fee as needed. The rules then apply equ…

Apple breaks out a services line in their financial reports. You should read them. Services has a gross margin of around 67-68%, but that includes a $9B check from Google every year with near 100% margins. So the App Store is very likely to be less than 67%, maybe as low as 15%. It’s not just payment processing. They provide other critically valuable services to developers such as App Review, Hosting, International D…

Please provide anything to back up these claims. Until you provide something, here's a breakdown from Forbes of an estimate of Apple's App Store revenue in 2019: https://dashboards.trefis.com/no-login-required/7JGMQ7wT/Bre... (there's an adjustment to the take percentage to see their estimated revenue if it's lowered, feel free to play around with it)

Apple Services:

- AppStore $ 15 billion

- Licencing $ 10 billion

- Apple Care & Others $ 7.5 billion

- Apple Music $ 5.4 billion

- iCloud $ 4.5 billion

- Third-Party Subscriptions $ 3.6 billion

Total: $46 billion

Remember, you're stating that Apple isn't able break even at a 10% fee for the App Store. Recall that Apple charges developers a yearly subscription (99 USD for non-enterprise accounts per year) to be able to submit something to the App Store. And additionally remember that your "co-marketing" cost should include the money Apple makes from advertisers on its App Store [1].

The items you mentioned as costs are standard for many similar internet service (hosting, security, customer APIs, etc. etc,.) that do not make nearly the amount of revenue Apple does with its App Store.

Let's do a worst case and cut Apple's estimated App Store revenue from $15 billion to $5 billion a year to show how ridiculous the claim that they can't break even is.

1 - https://searchads.apple.com/

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#433

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:48 PM UTC

jachee wrote: post #431

Apocryphon wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps if running unsigned apps became more widespread, businesses will spring up in the space to offer secure, curated apps as third-party app stores. Desktop software, for a long time, did not have the notion of specialized app stores or enforcing signed programs. Yes, Windows has loads of security issues. But surely this can be a problem that can be solved over time?

Why would John Q. Public trust a third party over the manufacturer of their device ?

Why would anyone want to download Firefox or Chrome when you can just surf with IE?

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#434

Post by smnrchrds » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:52 PM UTC

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #429

cm277 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I have a better analogy: Apple operates a market with a significant portion of economic activity in several industries / verticals, yet it sets its own rules and even is party to transactions. That's basically the definition of a black market. Black markets are useful in some circumstances, but when they grow too big they have to be regulated and taxed. A lot. Good for Epic.

Except for it to be a black market illegality needs to be established and it isn't clandestine - the rules are freely available and there are other markets (android) available for apps. This is a poor analogy. I am still waiting for a real argument on HN as to what Apple is doing that is anti-competitive or illegal. Still have not found one.

Apple and Google are both charging 30% fees and together, they own almost the entire smartphone market. It is harming consumers due to the higher costs this 30% is imposing on transactions. Whether it is illegal or not is up to the court to decide. But as a customer, I would like to complain about this and state my dissatisfaction. Perhaps if enough people do it, they will change their behaviour.

Also as a voter, I would hope that the legislature make these costs come down. In Canada, the government recently intervened to reduce credit card processing fees. I would hope next they direct their attention to app store fees.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4379884/canada-credit-card-fee-cu...

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#435

Post by ihumanable » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:54 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #28

rbecker wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I completely agree with it. Epic publicly and blatantly bypassed multiple App Store restrictions with their move today. App Store policy is not law - its terms are unilaterally set by Apple. Citing it as justification makes no sense.

The law allows for Apple to do this. You don’t have to use Apple products. You don’t have to use the Apple transaction system. It is not a commons, it is not a monopoly. There are other platforms and e-commerce solutions. If you want to regulate Apple’s behavior, introduce a law (I would support a law to regulate Apple’s cut of App Store transactions). Fortnite getting booted isn’t going to get a bill sponsored or ha…

Last I checked the Sherman Antitrust Act is still a law.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#436

Post by Bayart » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:56 PM UTC

smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

It's a regulation issue. Things were similar in my country until the state decided to sell the fourth frequency range licence at a reduced cost (to offset the lead of the other three) and made routing cheaper. In exchange the new provider had to commit infrastructure investments. At about the same time, it was legally mandated that transferring phone numbers between providers be simple and cheap. The prices cratered pretty much instantly.

I think I'm on a 15€/100GB plan at the moment (plus a bunch a stuff like 25GB a month of international roaming).

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#437

Post by thephyber » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:56 PM UTC

cm277 wrote: post #280

smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

I think I have a better analogy: Apple operates a market with a significant portion of economic activity in several industries / verticals, yet it sets its own rules and even is party to transactions. That's basically the definition of a black market. Black markets are useful in some circumstances, but when they grow too big they have to be regulated and taxed. A lot. Good for Epic.

You have changed the definition of "black markets" to something else.

A black market requires illegality. You are conflating "rules" of contracts and "rules" of law.

I agree that Apple "even is party to transactions". I think that's the common problem with Google (eg. Froogle / Google Shopping), Amazon (eg. Amazon Basics), and Apple (apps that compete and undercut 3rd party apps or which don't have to adhere to the same App Store contract clauses).

Elizabeth Warren discussed this frequently.

> Google, Apple, and Amazon provide platforms that lots of other companies depend on for survival. But Google, Apple, and Amazon also, in many cases, compete with those same small companies, so that the platform can become a tool to snuff out competition.

[1] https://www.warren.senate.gov/files/documents/2016-6-29_Warr...

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#438

Post by miah_ » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:58 PM UTC

smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

The word you are looking for is: oligopoly.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#439

Post by spanhandler » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:59 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #324

Noos wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by great you mean "great for malware makers" I guess so. HN has a big problem of pushing for changes hat benefit highly tech-literate people but in reality the majority of the market needs signed apps so they don't download harmful programs. I think people need to stop looking at their own immediate interests and start considering long term aspects of things. You can't just throw out technology now without underst…

Perhaps if running unsigned apps became more widespread, businesses will spring up in the space to offer secure, curated apps as third-party app stores. Desktop software, for a long time, did not have the notion of specialized app stores or enforcing signed programs. Yes, Windows has loads of security issues. But surely this can be a problem that can be solved over time?

> Perhaps if running unsigned apps became more widespread, businesses will spring up in the space to offer secure, curated apps as third-party app stores.

They should go ahead and do that, then make an OS and mobile devices built around their store, so I have an option other than iOS devices when I want someone in my life who's not a tech nerd to have a reasonably safe and usable computing experience that's still very robust and doesn't require any work on my part. That would be competition and improved consumer choice.

I want more options that deliver the experience Apple does (or better! Please!) rather than fewer. That's the choice I want. I've got tons of only-nerds-can-use-them-safely computing options. I don't need more of those.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#440

Post by dpkonofa » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:59 PM UTC

gcheong wrote: post #172

yladiz wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a false dichotomy; the correct comparison is: If a developer doesn't like Apple's terms, there are other phone platforms.

If you’re not published on Apple’s App Store then you can’t reach a huge segment of the market that would like to use your product. I don’t think Apple, Google, etc. , should be the gatekeepers between a developer and their customers.

They're not. That's the whole point. These are Apple's customers since they're finding the app in the App Store. Epic has other customers that play Fortnite that are not Apple customers.