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GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

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Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#431

Post by ryanwaggoner »

jacquesm wrote: post #273

This is a ridiculous over-reaction based on an extremely shallow interpretation of the GDPR. If you are running a small business and you feel that you won't be able to operate your business because of the GDPR consider all those other laws that you have to be in compliance with as well. If that's your attitude towards legal compliance then you should probably shut your business down completely rather than to hope tha…

This is such a terrible argument. You’re essentially arguing that any business of any kind should never complain or choose not to do business in a jurisdiction if the reason is regulatory burden, no matter how onerous, expensive, ambiguous, and offensive that regulation is.

That’s illogical and not the way that any business evaluates what activities to pursue or forgo.

You’re casting aspersions on this one guy and implying that he must be up to something shady, all because he’s chosen to not serve a market that has decided to pass some horrible regulation that you happen to like. Unbelievable.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too. The EU can pass whatever laws they want, but the rest of us are still free to tell you to pound sand.

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#432

Post by product50 »

jacquesm wrote: post #416
product50 wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is a 1 person team. Given him a break vs. being so aggressive in your comment. There is a cost associated with trying to figure out GDPR regulations, finding a lawyer, vetting their feedback, acting to hire folks, changing UI to give user an opt out, implementing that in the system etc. All these things don't drop from the sky. And they are a business. And as a business they have decided to get out of Europe as th…

> Given him a break vs. trying to me so aggressive in your comment. The article is spreading FUD and inciting others to spread it even further in the comments. > There is a cost associated with trying to figure out GDPR regulations, finding a lawyer, vetting their feedback, acting to hire folks, changing UI to give user an opt out, implementing that in the system etc. The GDPR is online, and has been for a long time,…

Well - you haven't refuted any of his core points wrt DPO, Push & XMPP. All your comments have been stated in an aggressive tone which generally is a negative signal. At this point, I feel you need to provide more context to your core points vs. just saying read the GDPR and comply with it (or that you should have already done 2 yrs back). Even companies like Google and FB are complying with it in the past month.

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#433

Post by s73v3r_ »

jimmaswell wrote: post #414
lovich wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't just say this is a US perspective. This is a sociopaths perspective that the current US legal system promotes due to the machinations of the same group of sociopaths. Every business owner here who would complain about how the GPDR is taking their rights to their personally earned data away would be the same people who launch a lawsuit because one of their competitior's products had a typeface that was va…

Targeted ads hardly qualify as abuse to me. Getting to use a website for free in exchange for your browsing data being analyzed is a great deal and a win/win for everybody. Surely anyone who disagrees with your feelings on this matter must be a sociopath, though.

"Getting to use a website for free in exchange for your browsing data being analyzed is a great deal and a win/win for everybody."

Which is why you are perfectly capable of giving consent to other websites to do that.

"Surely anyone who disagrees with your feelings on this matter must be a sociopath, though."

No, just those who insist on a "take it or leave it" approach.

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#434

Post by jacquesm »

leereeves wrote: post #418
jacquesm wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For small businesses it’s practically impossible to be in compliance for all laws. I've been in continuous operation with my businesses since 1986 and I guarantee you that I've been compliant with the laws as much as I'm aware of them. The major transgressions involving business assets were parking tickets, speeding tickets ( Running a small business in a way that is compliant with the law is stupidly easy: know th…

> I guarantee you that I've been compliant with the laws as much as I'm aware of them. All the laws, worldwide? Are you in compliance with anti-blasphemy laws? Laws that forbid insulting the monarch? The tax regime of every country in the world? The creator of Monal has decided the easiest way to be compliant with another country's laws is simply not to do business there, and I think you're underestimating the diffic…

Any laws that have the potential to reach me I am compliant with. If there are countries with laws that strike me as idiotic - such as anti-blasphemy laws - then I will do my level best to be informed of that beforehand and I will not break that law even if I feel that it is idiotic.

And as for the 'don't insult the monarch' law, we have that law here in NL and I purposefully broke it as a private individual to make a point.

The tax regime of every country in the world has no impact on me, I reside in NL, my businesses are here as well. But when I had several businesses in Canada and one in the USA I complied with the tax laws there too.

> The creator of Monal has decided the easiest way to be compliant with another country's laws is simply not to do business there, and I think you're underestimating the difficulty of the alternative (trying to comply with every country's laws).

He's taking the easy way out because there never was a real business behind this. This is my conclusion because he feels that his holidays are more important than the rights of his users.

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#435

Post by KirinDave »

tathougies wrote: post #400
jacquesm wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hobbies cost money and time. In this case it will only cost him a little bit of time.

Perhaps this isn't obvious to everyone, but other people are actually not obligated to spend their time doing things you want them to.

Perhaps it's not obvious to the author of that software, but publishing products (even free ones) involves liability. You cannot simply say, "Well I didn't charge you!" A free product can still be the subject of a fraud lawsuit, or a negligence lawsuit, etc.

And I think this is as it should be. I'm not sure why people think software meant for use by a broad audience, however cheap, should not be subject to basic safety, security and privacy regulations.

What's more, it's pretty clear the author doesn't actually have a lot of GDPR obligation. They need to maintain a contact point which Apple is actually doing for them. They need to forward RTE requests to crashlytics. If they're doing ANYTHING else with personal data, that's shady as hell and I'm glad they're not doing it to EU citizens anymore.

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#436

Post by jimmaswell »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #417
wilsonnb wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be a privacy violation but the idea of a fundamental right to privacy is not universally supported like free speech. If it is a fundamental right, how far does it go? Should I be able to sue you for watching me walk in a public place? Photographing me? Video taping me? What about a privately owned but still public place? There are a lot of questions here that I think people tend to skip over about users owning…

I'm sorry, but I cannot buy the argument that this is in any way, shape, or form related to "free speech".

Free speech of a webmaster being infringed by not allowing them to repeat information that their users gave them. Easy.

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#437

Post by leereeves »

grepnork wrote: post #328
zitterbewegung wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Businesses hate regulation and uncertainty because it just adds to their costs. Large companies just eat the cost. For small businesses it’s practically impossible to be in compliance for all laws. But if the risk of not being compliant is too high and the reward is too low then they will choose this.

Having spent this week doing compliance for my small business customers, the cost is not zero but it's really not much at all - I've done full compliance for six companies and it cost less than £250 each (one of those clients is a large NGO). This guy doesn't like regulation and is playing to the crowd for sympathy.

Is that £250 each just for GDPR compliance? That's one law in one region. Now multiply it by the number of legislative bodies worldwide and the number of relevant laws passed by each - how much does that cost?

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#438

Post by ryanwaggoner »

always_good wrote: post #426
jacquesm wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For small businesses it’s practically impossible to be in compliance for all laws. I've been in continuous operation with my businesses since 1986 and I guarantee you that I've been compliant with the laws as much as I'm aware of them. The major transgressions involving business assets were parking tickets, speeding tickets ( Running a small business in a way that is compliant with the law is stupidly easy: know th…

> [Complying] with the law is stupidly easy: know the law. You're out of touch. Compliance just isn't as simple as you think it is no matter how much you double down in these comments. Laws aren't black and white. Do you not use an accountant, either? Frankly, your advice is terrible.

Incredibly out of touch. I can virtually guarantee that a regulator or prosecutor who wanted to make an example of him could tear his business apart finding violations over 30+ years.

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#439

Post by jimmaswell »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #428
jimmaswell wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Oh no, that's a real pity. Oh no, poor webmasters. Why are the rights of people who own websites less important to you than the rights of other people? Regardless, you might not still be saying this once half the websites smaller than Google become subscription-based in the EU or just block the EU altogether.

Why do you feel entitled to invasive tracking of users?

Loaded question. I don't consider targeted ads etc. invasive.

Re: GDPR: Removing Monal from the EU

#440

Post by product50 »

jacquesm wrote: post #422
product50 wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the OPs exact point. Did you read the article? He mentioned that "The days of someone making something, putting it on the internet and offering it to the world seem to be over". And here you are talking about knowing the laws while the OP sits in a different country trying to run his business. You might be from Europe and to you it may just seem sensible but 1-5 person companies often have to make tradeoffs l…

> And here you are talking about knowing the laws while the OP sits in a different country trying to run his business. I also have to be compliant with US laws if I deal with US citizens. What's the difference? > You might be from Europe and to you it may just seem sensible but 1-5 person companies often have to make tradeoffs like this. Not the ones that want to stay in business. > It is not right to say just comply…

Again - no substance in your points. Rebut his core points if you understand GDPR so well.
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