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China Blocks WhatsApp

nytimes.com

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Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#431

Post by elefanten »

rwallace wrote: post #306
mahyarm wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unique tit-for-tat regulations of Chinese companies of what is shown in practice? "Our companies don't have freedoms X,Y,Z vs Chinese corps in china, so Chinese corps and investors will get the same special treatment in our country too".

On an ethical level, you're hurting people (e.g. Chinese workers) who had no part in the objectionable actions that prompted this. On a practical level, are there any cases in history where this has ever produced beneficial results?

But like you said, something more probably has to be done. Or else consider the case where the authoritarian model is perceived to have "won" and gets exported. That's also part of the ethical consideration.

Taking a measure such as gp's suggestion, which is at least fair and on face justifiable, may be the most just move.

And given the particularity of this case, history probably doesn't have a huge sample size. New contexts emerge, such as technological development. It's much more conceivable now than before that a small group of people could indefinitely hold power over the overwhelming majority.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#432

Post by usaar333 »

inimino wrote: post #412
usaar333 wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is more along the lines that China gets it slower due to a combination of tech not being released and research and communication with foreign users being more difficult due to web censorship. As one example, outside of tech areas that lacked strong traditional incumbents (fintech, e-commerce) or where strong cultural/linguistic context is needed (Chinese NLP), what areas are there where Chinese products…

> I'd argue that Google's products for photos, email, maps/navigation, video conferencing, and translation -- all blocked in China -- exceed that of any competitor, Chinese or otherwise I'd be interested to hear why you think so. As far as I know none of these are better than their Chinese counterparts in any meaningful way. (Competition isn't the right word as these are different markets.) Baidu Translate is at leas…

> VC

This was really striking to me how bad Chinese-based ones were (which got me thinking about this issue). The QQ client doesn't even seem to work when I attempt to visit the international one; WeChat lacks a webapp with VC, has no Linux desktop app and the Windows desktop app I used had rendering difficulties with the self pip screen -- far worse experience compared to Skype and Google Hangouts.

> Baidu translate

Are your referring to http://translate.baidu.com/? Unless I'm missing something, that doesn't even offer speech to text or text to speech, making it far less viable for conversation.

> Maps

Right, I'm comparing US to China here. As a simple example, of something Baidu maps seems to omit, it doesn't offer time estimates for travel at an arbitrary point in time. I can see historical traffic data, but can't seem to get routing/time to drive under that historical data. I'm not even sure how well Baidu reroutes based on current traffic data..

> Email

Even at work is this true?

I'll give you that I don't have great comparison on this one (hard to use random email providers).. and that Outlook is quite good.But the integration between gmail and other services is extremely powerful -- e.g. extracting appointments + flights from my email and auto-populating maps and sending reminders.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#433

Post by visvavasu »

Certhas wrote: post #117
chaostheory wrote: post #40

What the long-term effects will be: China's ruling class further cement their power at the cost of China's innovation and future growth. Interesting and useful things are made when people able share and consume information. e.g. Jack Ma's US visit exposed him to Yahoo. Ma Huateng was clearly inspired by his exposure to ICQ. The list goes on. The same thing happens in the West but it happens a lot more often since the…

Alternative: Innovation happens within the context of Chinas censorship and political regime. Blocking of entrenched western competitors allows home grown solutions to spring up, and local technological know how to develop faster. Capitalism and innovation turn out to work within the context of an illiberal society just fine. Especially as China avoids the mistake of closing itself off to the rest of the world, but s…

Thank you, this is perfect.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#434

Post by AmIFirstToThink »

FabHK wrote: post #409
AmIFirstToThink wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And, of course, it's not E2E encrypted; just the opposite, you can assume that it's being wiretapped/monitored. Whatsapp is not? Are you sure? I would assume NSA doing all it wants as well. Whatsapp is out not because it can't let authorities audit it, but because of other economic reasons.

> Whatsapp is not? Are you sure? Well, it's E2E encrypted, that's for sure. The NSA, like the Mossad, can do pretty much anything if you're a high-value target, I'd assume, but personally, I don't think there is blanket mass surveillance of WhatsApp chats, no. > Whatsapp is out not because it can't let authorities audit it, but because of other economic reasons. Do you have any evidence or even arguments for that ass…

WeChat employs people in China.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#436

Post by blondie9x »

Too much concern about if China can innovate and create Western alternatives. I don't think it's about that at all. It's about privacy and the freedom to choose.

That Chinese people cannot choose what they use and how they can live their lives online what is private and what isn't is the biggest issue with the WhatsApp move along with other services.

It would be sad to be Chinese living in China as the government takes choices away from me and my people.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#437

Post by uptownfunk »

dreamfactored wrote: post #322
chaostheory wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there's a tendency for people to overestimate the importance of foreign apps to Chinese consumers Then why take the trouble of blocking something so small and unimportant? ;) > eg., the Chinese tech/online market is so huge it can sustain multiple competitors of its own in each sector Doesn't China have bigger aspirations than just the mainland? People are missing the bigger point. I'm not talking about the…

1. These are foreign-owned infrastructure platforms and China is protective about its markets. Foreigners can't set up businesses of any kind, let alone infrastructure. 2. You seem to assume the bulk of innovation is going to be happening outside China and that blocking consumer access to Western platforms would somehow inhibit a flow of information to China. I'd disagree on both counts. The Chinese government is act…

This has little to do with China and innovation. The problem is mostly economical. China probably wants Chinese clones, clones that are incredibly valuable and based in China. All the wealth generated therefrom stays in China. That's it, it's likely an economical manipulation. And frankly, from an economical standpoint, well-played. (Hope I don't get downvoted to hell!)

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#438

Post by Iv »

chaostheory wrote: post #40

What the long-term effects will be: China's ruling class further cement their power at the cost of China's innovation and future growth. Interesting and useful things are made when people able share and consume information. e.g. Jack Ma's US visit exposed him to Yahoo. Ma Huateng was clearly inspired by his exposure to ICQ. The list goes on. The same thing happens in the West but it happens a lot more often since the…

The CCP congress is next month. They have always cracked down on censorship before it.

Their 5-years plan for 2016-2020 is about transitioning from the basic industry to more advanced industry and services. They want more research, they want more IT. Chinese IT workers are very critical of the Great Firewall and depend on VPNs to do a lot of things.

I think many are realizing that the Firewall is a handicap, but it is also undeniable that it is a very useful political tool. They will have to put that into the balance in front of their will to innovate.

They are also moving toward global leadership. In ecology, in foreign relations, they are willing to take the leadership that US is leaving. After being largely dismissive of it, if enough international pressure builds up, they may realize that opening up will help them reach these goals.

Sadly, thanks in no small part to Trump, they are probably realizing how dangerous it is to let people vote in a place where medias are not controlled, so my bet is that we will see either some more voting or some more openness in information exchange, but not both.

> To be fair, things may even out since Western governments seem to be doing all they can to copy China's censorship and gov control.

USA is jailing more of its citizens than China. Even in absolute numbers. USA kills more non-citizens abroad than China. In EU we tend to side with USA anyway because it is a democracy but the last president had less votes than his opponent and is a white supremacist.

Understand that for most of the world, accepting USA as a good guy is already a hell of a compromise. Seeing China as acceptable is not more far-fetched.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#439

Post by intrasight »

kcanini wrote: post #401
intrasight wrote: post #399

As long as China isn't breaking any WTO rules, they are free to block internet services and apps. If other countries aren't happy with this, they should change the WTO rules. If WTO rules are being broke, then clearly those rules have no teeth. Why would China block things? Various excellent reasons are discussed in this thread, and they all boil down to political and commercial. Are the Chinese people harmed? I woul…

The Chinese people are harmed if any end-to-end encrypted communications services are blocked to ensure the government is able to spy on them.

If you want secure communication then you have to use your own secure channel. That is true everywhere.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#440

Post by intrasight »

nick32m wrote: post #406
intrasight wrote: post #399

As long as China isn't breaking any WTO rules, they are free to block internet services and apps. If other countries aren't happy with this, they should change the WTO rules. If WTO rules are being broke, then clearly those rules have no teeth. Why would China block things? Various excellent reasons are discussed in this thread, and they all boil down to political and commercial. Are the Chinese people harmed? I woul…

You do know that Wechat's chat history stored in Tencent's database in plain text? The authorisation could check/monitor any Chinese citizen who uses Wechat, if they say something bad about the government or spread the rumours of some officials corruptions, they will be in big trouble?!? How do you mean Chinese people are not harmed? Their privacy is absolutely harmed and they have less choices for chatting and that'…

I wouldn't use WhatsApp or Wechat or any of these spyware apps.

The Chinese government isn't taking something away (privacy, freedom) because it was never granted. Therefore I say "no harm". If the people want these rights, they will have to reform their government.

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