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China Blocks WhatsApp

nytimes.com

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Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#111

Post by rubenbe »

sliverstorm wrote: post #31
rubenbe wrote: post #13

This is getting really strict. I went to China around 2012: * Facebook was already blocked * Google and wikipedia magically stopped working when you searched for "tiananmen" * Gmail worked fine I returned in early 2017, oh god what a change: * Don't even think about Facebook * Ironically Facebook messenger worked until my session expired * No gmail, google at all (don't remember about Wikipedia) * Whatsapp worked fin…

How well does Android work in general if all google services are blocked? I know Android doesn't technically require google, but a lot of the features & stuff are entangled, like backup & restore, contact sync, etc.

You cannot reach the Play Store at all. And your phone always complains about "limited network access", because it cannot ping the google predefined URL.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#112

Post by bitcuration »

chaostheory wrote: post #108
micaksica wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people who will get ahead in China in the future are the ones who are somehow able to live outside of China to experience new ideas. So in other words, the ruling class continues to rule, as they will be the only ones with the sanctioned political freedoms to study abroad, etc. > China's fate as being relegated to being the world's giant copy machine is sealed unless things revert China being the world's giant…

> China being the world's giant copy machine has worked very well for those in power in China. Why not sustain that as long as possible? Someone may correct me... 1. having a more open society results in more innovation, which results in more economic development which allows the ruling class to become even wealthier and more powerful globally 2. currently, only 18-20% of China is middle class. About 78% of China is…

What he meant is it has worked well for a selected few in China, as well as those international tycoon.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#113

Post by Jach »

justaman wrote: post #82
jrmurad wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Chinese never had a Locke, or a Rousseau, or a Hobbes How about Lao-Tzu? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laozi

Perhaps you could give examples as to how they are similar?

I wonder if the intent is to compare their outputs directly, or to point out that China has its history of great writers just like the West. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_classics is a nice list.)

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#115

Post by chaostheory »

bitcuration wrote: post #112
chaostheory wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China being the world's giant copy machine has worked very well for those in power in China. Why not sustain that as long as possible? Someone may correct me... 1. having a more open society results in more innovation, which results in more economic development which allows the ruling class to become even wealthier and more powerful globally 2. currently, only 18-20% of China is middle class. About 78% of China is…

What he meant is it has worked well for a selected few in China, as well as those international tycoon.

Yes I understood. I'm just saying that it can be even better for those select few as well. i.e. they are leaving money on the table

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#116

Post by bad_user »

micaksica wrote: post #76
chaostheory wrote: post #40

What the long-term effects will be: China's ruling class further cement their power at the cost of China's innovation and future growth. Interesting and useful things are made when people able share and consume information. e.g. Jack Ma's US visit exposed him to Yahoo. Ma Huateng was clearly inspired by his exposure to ICQ. The list goes on. The same thing happens in the West but it happens a lot more often since the…

> The people who will get ahead in China in the future are the ones who are somehow able to live outside of China to experience new ideas. So in other words, the ruling class continues to rule, as they will be the only ones with the sanctioned political freedoms to study abroad, etc. > China's fate as being relegated to being the world's giant copy machine is sealed unless things revert China being the world's giant…

China might build their own products and I can see them building WhatsApp alternatives, but I won't install Chinese alternatives to WhatsApp on my phone, which means the Chinese won't be able to talk with me, an European, all the while I'm communicating without issues with acquaintances from all over Europe and the U.S.

This means that the Chinese are living in a bubble. This isn't news of course.

But the other issue is that they can't attract much foreign talent to relocate there, like Europe and the U.S. have historically done. Because they don't have a culture friendly to immigrants, but also because their environment is toxic for those of us that are accustomed to liberal democracies.

And their "copy machines" are actually racing against the clock, as more and more factories get fully automated and thus relocated home, not to mention their rising middle class, thus their cheap labor advantage will eventually go away. So when multinational companies will no longer assemble their products in China, what will they copy?

Of course, their middle class are now sending their children to western schools and many of them will probably go back to China, but on the other hand the best and brightest end up having the choice to stay in the west and many of them will.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#117

Post by Certhas »

chaostheory wrote: post #40

What the long-term effects will be: China's ruling class further cement their power at the cost of China's innovation and future growth. Interesting and useful things are made when people able share and consume information. e.g. Jack Ma's US visit exposed him to Yahoo. Ma Huateng was clearly inspired by his exposure to ICQ. The list goes on. The same thing happens in the West but it happens a lot more often since the…

Alternative:

Innovation happens within the context of Chinas censorship and political regime. Blocking of entrenched western competitors allows home grown solutions to spring up, and local technological know how to develop faster.

Capitalism and innovation turn out to work within the context of an illiberal society just fine. Especially as China avoids the mistake of closing itself off to the rest of the world, but stays integrated in the markets, as well as the academic exchanges.

The Chinese government doesn't stop high tech investment, but only blocks a few select companies that have products that are, at their core, easy to replicate (WhatsApp, Facebook, to a lesser degree Google) at a sufficient level of quality.

Rather than free markets pushing towards a more liberal politics, the Chinese government develops means to make the market optimize for political obedience [1].

Most people individually will consider themselves "free enough", and not care about politics as long as the country is well managed. Nothing stops you from starting to research or trying to build self-driving cars in China [2]. China will continue to manage to hire western talent for its firms [3] until whatever skill gap still exists is filled.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

[2] https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/01/goldman-says-china-has-talen...

[3] https://qz.com/1062035/half-of-the-top-10-employers-of-ai-ta...

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#118

Post by derptron »

aodin wrote: post #53
CamperBob2 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Got a link that backs up this rather surreal claim?

> At a White House dinner in 2015, Mr. Zuckerberg had even asked the Chinese president, Xi Jinping, whether Mr. Xi might offer a Chinese name for his soon-to-be-born first child — usually a privilege reserved for older relatives, or sometimes a fortune teller. Mr. Xi declined, according to a person briefed on the matter. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/17/technology/facebook-gover...

Good old Zuck the cuck

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#119

Post by emiliobumachar »

chaostheory wrote: post #40

What the long-term effects will be: China's ruling class further cement their power at the cost of China's innovation and future growth. Interesting and useful things are made when people able share and consume information. e.g. Jack Ma's US visit exposed him to Yahoo. Ma Huateng was clearly inspired by his exposure to ICQ. The list goes on. The same thing happens in the West but it happens a lot more often since the…

On the other hand, the West seems to take Copywright and Patents much more seriously, which also dampens creativity a lot.

(The chilling effects from software patents alone seem to be very large)

I wonder how the effects compare.

Re: China Blocks WhatsApp

#120

Post by pangfandang »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #99
chaostheory wrote: post #40

What the long-term effects will be: China's ruling class further cement their power at the cost of China's innovation and future growth. Interesting and useful things are made when people able share and consume information. e.g. Jack Ma's US visit exposed him to Yahoo. Ma Huateng was clearly inspired by his exposure to ICQ. The list goes on. The same thing happens in the West but it happens a lot more often since the…

Completely agree that they will further cement their power, but it won't be at the cost of innovation and growth IMO. China's access to leading technologies and technologists is absolutely unparalleled. The amount of Chinese students that are publishing some of the leading CS and ML research from the best universities and corporations worldwide is staggering when compared to all other nations. China isn't 'Closing up…

> The amount of Chinese students that are publishing...

That's the thing. These are mostly overseas Chinese working for US/European companies who have no desire to return to China. Talk to any of them, and they're always concerned about the status of their visa and are ecstatic when they become a citizen of a democracy.

> China isn't 'Closing up' they are pushing people to use the services

Tencent and Baidu are used by tiny tiny tiny portions of westerners

> Unless the US, Canada, France, Israel etc... closes the visa program

There's no need, these Chinese students are staying and not returning to China.

By the way, since you think China is doing such a good job of education: remember that Rural households have a per capita income of only 9,892 yuan – about $4 dollars a day. and there's 680 million of these rural households still.

"Surveys by Rozelle's team have found that more than half of eighth graders in poor rural areas in China have IQs below 90, leaving them struggling to keep up with the fast-paced official curriculum"

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/09/one-three-chinese-chi...

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