How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance • Hacker News Board

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#431

Post by pm90 » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 7:40 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #426

pm90 wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know what else I have seen, lots and lots of very competent, driven, and smart American students. Also interviewed them. The idea that there are none and we have to hire from overseas using a visa process is ridiculous. It isn't that there are none , the problem is that there aren't enough. And instead of hypothesizing, just look at how oversubscribed the H1B visa is and how many people come in via other work v…

> the problem is that there aren't enough By what measure? > just look at how oversubscribed the H1B visa is What is your interpretation of this? Who would turn down the chance of cheap labor even without a shortage? > I can't believe how common this idea that "free market will fix everything!" is on HN This is an exaggerated characterisation; but to some degree it is necessary to rely on market principles, given how…

> What is your interpretation of this? Who would turn down the chance of cheap labor even without a shortage?

The labor is not cheap. I have already explained this.

> Demand is high. Why is the population count relevant? People are choosing other career paths, which means there isn't enough incentive to choose IT.

It isn't. I bring it up because the parent brought it up. I think we are in agreement here.

> You could, and why not? Are you implying India is incapable of producing gold-medal winning athletes?

Most certainly not.

> Not overnight, might it might in the long run. Why wouldn't it?

I have already explained this. Please don't ask the same question for me to give the same answer. The only reason I am replying is because you seem to be genuinely interested in an open-minded discussion about this issue.

> You mean the bodyshop abuse? Won't a minimum wage requirement fix it?

No, I don't mean the bodyshop abuse. The problem: not enough Americans to fill vacancies in tech sector. That is the problem that this solution won't fix.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#432

Post by pm90 » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 7:43 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #425

pm90 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job? Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. I went to school in one of the best CS programs in the country. Believe me: there are all kinds of outreach programs, high school outreach programs etc. to get more Americans involved in Tech. An…

> And while there are more Americans in Tech, the demand far outstrips supply. What is this supposed to mean? That there is no market clearing price where the supply curve and the demand curve intersect, such that at any wage level demand exceeds supply? Or just that the politically (because also economically) powerful buyers prefer lower prices than that market-clearing price, and so want government action to lower…

> What is this supposed to mean? That there is no market clearing price where the supply curve and the demand curve intersect, such that at any wage level demand exceeds supply? Or just that the politically (because also economically) powerful buyers prefer lower prices than that market-clearing price, and so want government action to lower the price?

Demand and supply curves don't work well when the thing in demand is skilled people. You cannot ramp up the number of skilled engineers immediately when demand shoots up.

edit: missed a "don't"

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#433

Post by pm90 » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 7:58 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #428

pm90 wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Previous posters describe CS majors working for Starbucks/McDonalds - if entry is easy, how could this be? They most certainly do not...please read the actual post. The post says their college graduate friends...not graduates in CS. Anecdotally, I haven't seen any American with a CS degree be out of job for a very long time unless they were doing something really wrong (i.e. not applying/following up with interview…

> The post says their college graduate friends...not graduates in CS Ah, I concede this. Maybe this isn't an issue in US as it is in the UK.. > They are not mutually exclusive: you can do both What stops industry becoming dependent on it though? There are big advantages to H1B visa workers, there is a risk that it saps market demand. Immigration might be the path of least resistance to solving labor shortage, rather…

There is absolutely nothing that stops the industry from being dependent on it. It is a very real risk. But restricting immigration is certainly not the solution.

I've seen you argue for a market where demand doesn't meet supply as a desirable state for the labor market. If you do believe that, then there is really no basis for this particular debate. The principle of my argument has been that there is a problem, labor shortage which cannot be fixed by the solutions offered. If you're arguing that the labor shortage is not a problem, then that is a completely different debate.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#434

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 8:12 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #432

dragonwriter wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And while there are more Americans in Tech, the demand far outstrips supply. What is this supposed to mean? That there is no market clearing price where the supply curve and the demand curve intersect, such that at any wage level demand exceeds supply? Or just that the politically (because also economically) powerful buyers prefer lower prices than that market-clearing price, and so want government action to lower…

> What is this supposed to mean? That there is no market clearing price where the supply curve and the demand curve intersect, such that at any wage level demand exceeds supply? Or just that the politically (because also economically) powerful buyers prefer lower prices than that market-clearing price, and so want government action to lower the price? Demand and supply curves don't work well when the thing in demand…

[deleted]

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#435

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 8:19 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #422

Chris2048 wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people seem to have set their minds on it You're not wrong, people are just stubborn? > programming is not something you can "train" everyone into Would you be as happy to conclude that teaching isn't something everyone can do? If there is some general failing with the entire educational system, "immigration" won't fix that; but this is a tractable/solvable (if difficult) problem if foreign countries are able to pr…

> Previous posters describe CS majors working for Starbucks/McDonalds - if entry is easy, how could this be? They most certainly do not...please read the actual post. The post says their college graduate friends...not graduates in CS. Anecdotally, I haven't seen any American with a CS degree be out of job for a very long time unless they were doing something really wrong (i.e. not applying/following up with interview…

[deleted]

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#436

Post by unprepare » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 8:19 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #428

pm90 wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Previous posters describe CS majors working for Starbucks/McDonalds - if entry is easy, how could this be? They most certainly do not...please read the actual post. The post says their college graduate friends...not graduates in CS. Anecdotally, I haven't seen any American with a CS degree be out of job for a very long time unless they were doing something really wrong (i.e. not applying/following up with interview…

> The post says their college graduate friends...not graduates in CS Ah, I concede this. Maybe this isn't an issue in US as it is in the UK.. > They are not mutually exclusive: you can do both What stops industry becoming dependent on it though? There are big advantages to H1B visa workers, there is a risk that it saps market demand. Immigration might be the path of least resistance to solving labor shortage, rather…

>Ah, I concede this. Maybe this isn't an issue in US as it is in the UK..

You shouldnt, i later specified i was including CS grads - i was a CS major until i switched to MIS, so most of my college friends are from one of those two programs.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#437

Post by unprepare » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 8:25 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #433

Chris2048 wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The post says their college graduate friends...not graduates in CS Ah, I concede this. Maybe this isn't an issue in US as it is in the UK.. > They are not mutually exclusive: you can do both What stops industry becoming dependent on it though? There are big advantages to H1B visa workers, there is a risk that it saps market demand. Immigration might be the path of least resistance to solving labor shortage, rather…

There is absolutely nothing that stops the industry from being dependent on it. It is a very real risk. But restricting immigration is certainly not the solution. I've seen you argue for a market where demand doesn't meet supply as a desirable state for the labor market. If you do believe that, then there is really no basis for this particular debate. The principle of my argument has been that there is a problem, lab…

then your argument ignores the problem that literally everyone else is talking about, which is.... very strange.

We are here talking about changes to the H1B visa program which are intended to curb abuse/fraud of the program.

and you are here to talk only about a labor shortage in one industry?

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#438

Post by coldtea » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 8:31 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #91

anton_tarasenko wrote: post #76

The tone of tech companies does not resonate with the electorate. The Bay Area basically says to America: We have foreigners here who founded some companies and got rich, so we don't want your visa restrictions. How do tech executives motivate the average American to support this stance? Taxes? IT companies and their owners enjoy a very friendly tax treatment. Jobs? The largest IT companies employ only 20-60k people…

It may not be the desired tone but essentially that's how America got populated in the first place, a place where foreigners with some disadvantage in their country of origin could get rich. And many did. Kicking the door behind you closed once you've got yours or because you're afraid new immigrants will take your job is hypocrisy of a terrible kind for a nation that was founded on immigration.

>Kicking the door behind you closed once you've got yours or because you're afraid new immigrants will take your job is hypocrisy

There's nothing hypocritical about it. It can sure be called selfish, but not hypocritical.

Hypocrisy is to pretend you support one thing, while doing another.

Here they just stop supporting immigration after they themselves got in (and usually decades after they themselves got it -- it's not like some 2-years fresh American citizen is asking for a stop in immigration).

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#439

Post by coldtea » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 8:32 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #208

devmunchies wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that's how America got populated in the first place This isn't 1910. We are the top 5 in the world in population. We don't need as much immigration as we used to. Americans should benefit from the American system before foreigners, like, you know, how every other country works.

Americans should benefit from the American system before foreigners, like, you know, how every other country works. There will be specific Americans who benefit less than specific immigrants, but the net effect of immigration has pretty much always been a benefit to the economy. Why should we put the interests of specific Americans ahead of the interests of Americans overall?

>There will be specific Americans who benefit less than specific immigrants, but the net effect of immigration has pretty much always been a benefit to the economy.

Well, tell that to the Native Americans, who were nearly exterminated by immigration.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#440

Post by unprepare » Fri, Feb 03, 2017, 8:54 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #400

pm90 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? From your handle, I did think you were among the more nuanced members in this forum. I guess this issue cuts too close to your heart though. > Yes I would! There can be exceptional graduates. I have seen and interviewed some. Google / Facebook / Microsoft already pays that much for good graduate and more Yes, and they are the exception not the rule. American tech sector is not just limited to these companies.…

> I did think you were among the more nuanced members in this forum What does this mean?

it means "i wouldve guessed (based on your username) you were smarter than i know believe you to be"

Its an insult, not really hackernews quality, as almost all of this users comments in this thread have been an attack on someone. I dont know if this person had a bad day, or if they are always so unbearable and condescending.