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How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

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Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#391

Post by DrScump »

mywittyname wrote: post #109
anton_tarasenko wrote: post #76

The tone of tech companies does not resonate with the electorate. The Bay Area basically says to America: We have foreigners here who founded some companies and got rich, so we don't want your visa restrictions. How do tech executives motivate the average American to support this stance? Taxes? IT companies and their owners enjoy a very friendly tax treatment. Jobs? The largest IT companies employ only 20-60k people…

Keep hammering the fact that these people are job producers, not consumers. If you can prove that one skilled H1B results in additional two jobs being created in the region, then it becomes an easier pill to swallow. I work in a rural region with a high number of H1Bs because one of the biggest companies in the area is a tech giant. Most people I've talked to (outside of tech) realize that these people bring in a lot…

  without them, 10s of millions of dollars would disappear from the local economy
The positions would disappear, and the company fold, rather than the company offer enough to attract domestic talent (including Resident Aliens)? That's odd.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#392

Post by masonic »

ericd wrote: post #60
yummyfajitas wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice, it's necessary that it be sufficient for the vast majority of the cases. And in the vast majority of the cases, it is. Immigrants from the 7 countries that Obama designated in the Terrorist Travel Prevention Act of 2015 [1], and authorized suspension of entry for, make up a tiny fraction of visas. [1] https://www.niacaction.org/update-frequently-asked-questions... https://sethfrantzman.com/2017/01/28/oba…

Right, it's still the vast majority, but it's not virtually certain like it was. But I was speaking in the abstract, I wasn't trying to make it seem like a bigger thing than it is. That said, would you agree that the way this is being handled shakes confidence for visitors from other countries that haven't been banned? For green card holders who've moved their lives to the US?

  would you agree that the way this is being handled shakes confidence for visitors
I (for one) would agree that the way this is being reported in the mainstream media can shake confidence for visitors.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#393

Post by grey-area »

johncolanduoni wrote: post #59
grey-area wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While they leave weaselly terms like this in visas to give the government discretion, the expectation was that if you were law-abiding you had nothing to fear. That expectation has been violated by recent actions, because green card holders with no black marks were turned away or prevented from even coming on the whim of the president. That devalues something like a green card dramatically because it could be rendere…

Eh, that might be overestimating the state of immigration in the U.S. pre-Trump. In particular people from the countries in the EO were already subject to a lot of grief, especially if they had a non-immigrant visa. I've known people who got stuck outside the country and missed a semester because they went to Canada while they had an F-1 visa. Not that making it predictably horrible isn't, well, horrible. And the gre…

Yes, it probably is not so surprising to people exposed 1st hand to the arbitrary system previously, the more extreme measures have just been a wake up call for those unaffected by it. It was horrible before, but I think rescinding green cards arbitrarily and en masse takes it to a new level, I'm glad it is shining some light on these procedures and making people think about why those arbitrary restrictions are in place based on place of birth.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#394

Post by xiaoma »

whatever_dude wrote: post #56
hungrygs wrote: post #28

The general direction of the Trump plan regarding H-1b is the way to go. The lottery needs to be replaced with a demand system where the highest salaries get slots. A floor of $100,000/yr should exist and adjust for inflation. Next, generously expand the green card fast track, as this category of employee, as an immigrant, is a free agent to move among companies or to start their own business. To date, as we all know…

The H1B as it is has many problems, but a big salary floor is not the way to go in my opinion. Remember H1B is not just for tech workers. If you want to hire, say, an interpreter of a specific foreign language to work on a community in rural Alabama temporarily, a $100,000 minimum wage would be absurd. They instead need to go after the companies that learned to game the system. I'm not sure what the solution is here.…

The previous H-1B minimum wage of $60,000, which was established in 1989, is the equivalent of $117,000 in today's dollars.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#395

Post by Retric »

netc wrote: post #385
Retric wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there people in the US who know the language and are not willing to move to Alabama for 95k? Then the market has spoken. The entire point of capitalism is not everyone get's what they want and price how that is decided.

>The entire point of capitalism is not everyone get's what they want and price how that is decided. You mean protected capitalism - protected by artificial minimum wages put in place by government?

Remove minimum wage and people are not going to work for 1cent per hour. Further, this is a finite world, with finite resources and finite people. Not every business is viable even without an enforced minimum wage.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#396

Post by Retric »

johncolanduoni wrote: post #381
Retric wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies are free to higher Canadian workers in Canida etc. You can even get an Indian worker in Mexico and import the results free of charge. But, limiting immigration is one of the fundamental functions of government, and it's not going away any time soon. PS: I also somehow doubt you would be OK with al qaeda corp setting up shop an then importing large number of people.

So the US wasn't a government until 1875 when the first immigration law was passed? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_Act_of_1875

American Indians where removed from US soil long before 1875. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Wars further these go back to 1540.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#397

Post by Chris2048 »

lutorm wrote: post #291
Retric wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the language program just gets cut. And then what? Yes, an Alabama community collage can't pay for a language teacher, that's a fairly normal problem for community collages. It does not suggest there is somehow a market failure. PS: I think you miss understood my upper bound. I doubt people want an immigration policy based on filling any jobs that pays more than ~30k/year.

So why is this a better outcome than letting them hire one on an H1B? No American loses their job, and a community college program remains, giving people access to education. I don't see what "market failure" has to do with the H1B at all. Just because the market worked correctly doesn't imply that the outcome was desirable.

> So why is this a better outcome

It might be a better outcome for native translators who see higher demand increase their salaries. The market has to be fair for all participants. Salary will never increase with demand, if increases in demand are always undermined by bringing in H1B workers.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#398

Post by Chris2048 »

Retric wrote: post #370
johncolanduoni wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but then why do you refuse to accept multiplying X by the actual market wage for the job instead of picking a fixed number (in which I see no X)?

Because supply is influenced by price. The supply of gold is huge if I am willing to pay above market rates. If I want a conductive metal I am going to chose something other than gold in the vast majority of cases because of price. In the case of gold the price is based on both demand and resource extraction costs. Moving to the workforce, students pick jobs in part because of what they will pay. Over time this feedb…

I think the right justification for H1B visas, rather than a set minimum should be "How will this affect the salaries of existing workers". If there is any reduction, you are not working in the interests of those workers, hence the visas are not fair.

If, on the other hand there is no difference, then the visa is justified.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#399

Post by Chris2048 »

gumby wrote: post #384
someguydave wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But the system does need an escape mechanism when nobody local can do the work. I submit that there is no work in the US that can't be done by a US citizen. The problem isn't "finding someone" the problem is "finding someone at the below-market-rate wage we want to pay"

> I submit that there is no work in the US that can't be done by a US citizen. In another thread to this article I gave an example of a teacher for a German school -- native speaker, experienced in teaching the German state curriculum. A few such people have moved here and indeed we hired them, but mostly they had to come in on H-1. There are certainly medical specialties for which there is a shortage of available do…

> US citizen expert in every possible discipline in every possible location?

discipline, yes, but location is the same as wage - people can move if offered enough incentive.

Re: How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Dominance

#400

Post by Chris2048 »

pm90 wrote: post #187
rdtsc wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would get one from local market for that amount of money. Wait, why? Are you implying foreign workers are not competent and can't be exceptional? Surely it isn't that? Otherwise, sounds like then H1B will finally work as intended, you'd be able higher exceptional people from overseas who might not be available in your area? Maybe there is a distributed systems expert from Argentina or a compiler writer from Ghana…

Really? From your handle, I did think you were among the more nuanced members in this forum. I guess this issue cuts too close to your heart though. > Yes I would! There can be exceptional graduates. I have seen and interviewed some. Google / Facebook / Microsoft already pays that much for good graduate and more Yes, and they are the exception not the rule. American tech sector is not just limited to these companies.…

> I did think you were among the more nuanced members in this forum

What does this mean?

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