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The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

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Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#421

Post by scarface_74 »

atleastoptimal wrote: post #307

I am an introvert not because I don’t like socializing with people, but rather because I can’t shake the impression that they don’t like socializing with me (and I have been proven right in this notion). In order to become more likable I’ve had to adopt an extremely perceptive and self critical mental framework to analyze every thing I could be doing wrong to annoy or offend people. It has worked, and people seem to…

The further up I get in my career and especially when I fell into consulting in 2020 and more so after Covid lifted, I’ve had to “act like I like people”. I’ve studied how to talk to and deal with people a lot over the past few years. I’m good at it. But it is tiring.

I was also an only child. While I have four friend groups including my cousins I grew up with, there are plenty of times I enjoy just being alone or even sitting alone in a crowd where I don’t have to talk to people.

My wife knows that about me and she can sense when I just need some me time.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#422

Post by bawolff »

frognumber wrote: post #340
lll-o-lll wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be a bit autistic, common enough in the software world. Lookup something called “autistic masking”. Source: All the autistic people in my life. I really like autistic people! Find your people and you won’t have to pretend around them.

Right now, we increasingly like to stick labels on things, and I'm not sure it's helpful. Autism is a disorder, diagnosed in DSM V. Very few people in your life are likely to be autistic. As with many such things, it's a spectrum. Unless those cross a pathological threshold, it's not autism. Few SWEs are over that threshold. We used to call people "nerdy," "quirky," or other things (and it was okay to be that). That'…

> Right now, we increasingly like to stick labels on things, and I'm not sure it's helpful.

All models are wrong, some are useful.

I don't think OP is neccesarily saying the poster has autism, just that the thing they are describing is similar to something a lot of autistic people describe, so maybe reading about it would be helpful. That can be true for everyone. We can all learn from the experiences of others.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#423

Post by bawolff »

sweezyjeezy wrote: post #241
interludead wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Success is about the skills, contributions and value you bring to the table, not about how much you talk

This sounds naive. Most companies have some degree of 'politics' which is essentially people working in their own interests over the company's. This is somewhat unrelated to skills and value. Also particularly in large organisations, work is not a perfect information game - there is no easy way to assign a fair / public a "value" to people to let you compare two employees. Most people will need to sell themselves or…

I think that depends on the company and the circumstances it finds itself in. Office politics can be more complex than what you are describing.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#424

Post by bawolff »

cardanome wrote: post #279
interludead wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Success is about the skills, contributions and value you bring to the table, not about how much you talk

I think career success is purely whether people like you or not. Your skills and contributions don't matter at all as long as they are not so bad that people absolutely can not ignore it. Companies are mostly build on diffusing individual responsibility. Even if you majorly mess up as long as the right people like you you will be fine. Doesn't mean one needs to be an extrovert. Just have good social skills in general…

I think this is wrong. Career success comes from providing value to people (who have power over you). Getting them to like you is the easiest but not only way.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#425

Post by Tainnor »

billy99k wrote: post #408
Tainnor wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've worked with lots of introverts (I am a mix of both introvert and extrovert) in tech and it usually goes along with passive aggressive behavior (because introverts usually don't like confrontation) and other behavior that makes collaboration (which is needed in almost all business settings) a nightmare. I could just as well say that extraversion goes along with overly assertive and aggressive behaviour and othe…

"I could just as well say that extraversion goes along with overly assertive and aggressive behaviour and other behaviour that makes collaboration a nightmare" I don't really see this very often. If someone isn't writing documentation or writing proper tickets, I don't think it has anything to do with being an extrovert/introvert. "because everyone is different and you can't just generalise like that. Being an introv…

"Your truth" is very condescending though. It may be that the reason you're having trouble with introverts is your attitude towards them.

Also how do you reconcile what you're writing here with what you wrote less than a month ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42341572 ?

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#426

Post by noduerme »

zb3 wrote: post #64
noduerme wrote: post #38

Like so many things, introversion can now be both medicalized as a disorder and celebrated as a lifestyle choice. This allows some people to pick whichever is psychologically soothing to them at the moment and use it to justify a lack of effort, as if socializing were not a skill that many people actually have to work on.

How about "shutting up and leaving people alone" as a skill that many people should have to work on? Let's distribute the effort.

Ah yeah, I forgot. Being outraged that other people have opinions that offend you is a good fallback if soothing methods 1 and 2 fail.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#427

Post by cardanome »

bawolff wrote: post #424
cardanome wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think career success is purely whether people like you or not. Your skills and contributions don't matter at all as long as they are not so bad that people absolutely can not ignore it. Companies are mostly build on diffusing individual responsibility. Even if you majorly mess up as long as the right people like you you will be fine. Doesn't mean one needs to be an extrovert. Just have good social skills in general…

I think this is wrong. Career success comes from providing value to people (who have power over you). Getting them to like you is the easiest but not only way.

Isn't being liked by someone and providing value to someone basically the same? At least in a corporate context, a healthy way to think about this stuff this way in your private life.

I only examples I can think of where you are valued but not liked is maybe when you are valued as a scapegoat or something, like abusive stuff but generally being liked and providing value should be ideally be the same.

Of course you can be liked for different aspects, be it for performing well and so making your superiors look good to being a yes-man who validates their ideas or plainly being quiet and low maintenance. Depends on who is managing you.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#428

Post by _yb2s »

hnbad wrote: post #343
lll-o-lll wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be a bit autistic, common enough in the software world. Lookup something called “autistic masking”. Source: All the autistic people in my life. I really like autistic people! Find your people and you won’t have to pretend around them.

Same with ADHD. People with ADHD often experience social friction because they may be perceived as rude or bad listeners. Plus of course there's significant overlap between people with ADHD and autistic people (as well as an overlap in symptoms). ADHD doesn't have to present as being fidgety and hyper either, inattentiveness (i.e. not being able to control your focus well) is another big aspect. If as a kid you kept…

Great description, my experience with inattentive ADHD was identical to what you describe.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#429

Post by _yb2s »

Twirrim wrote: post #366
ternnoburn wrote: post #194

This author is deeply deeply misunderstanding other humans. They are applying a "it worked for me, therefore it works for all" mentality. And worse yet, coming to the wrong conclusions. You do not need to be an extrovert at work to get ahead. Full stop. Does it help in some ways? Sure, but you can be equally successful as an introvert as long as you are able to communicate clearly when needs demand it. Plenty of exce…

This whole introvert/extrovert label drives me a little crazy, just like almost anything that attempts to put people into boxes. Humanity really needs to get past this foolish notion that things are black and white instead of the real shades of grey. I probably straddle the line of introvert/extrovert. People tire me out, and I recharge in solitude like an introvert, but I'm also quite gregarious, and need to be arou…

The introvert/extrovert concept was developed by Carl Jung and is both a continuum, and is logical and clearly defined. It also is just one dimension of limitless ones that can describe a persons personality. Yours and most other criticisms of the concept apply to popular misunderstandings of the idea, but not the original concept itself.

Like you I am an introvert that is very social and friendly, enjoys social interaction, and does not have much social anxiety… but too much social interaction is exhausting to me, and requires me to recharge. People tend to confuse introversion with social anxiety and antisocial attitudes which are both distinctly different.

Re: The trap of "I am not an extrovert"

#430

Post by exmadscientist »

frognumber wrote: post #340
lll-o-lll wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be a bit autistic, common enough in the software world. Lookup something called “autistic masking”. Source: All the autistic people in my life. I really like autistic people! Find your people and you won’t have to pretend around them.

Right now, we increasingly like to stick labels on things, and I'm not sure it's helpful. Autism is a disorder, diagnosed in DSM V. Very few people in your life are likely to be autistic. As with many such things, it's a spectrum. Unless those cross a pathological threshold, it's not autism. Few SWEs are over that threshold. We used to call people "nerdy," "quirky," or other things (and it was okay to be that). That'…

Ironically, my experience with people close to me is that obsession with labels is actually a pretty decent hallmark of autism. One family member, upon receiving a new "diagnosis" (usually self-diagnosed) actually changes their affect to become more like the textbook examples for that label. (And has done this more than once.) It can be very frustrating to deal with. This person has been diagnosed as on the autism spectrum, and the best explanation I've heard for their behavior is that it's masking gone rather wrong. This is an extreme example, but the general map-territory-label confusion is something I've seen a lot in people I know with a neurodivergence.
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