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The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

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Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#421
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a piece of advice: try to take a step back and listen more carefully to the complaints you're hearing. When people talk about dismantling the patriarchy, or about racial privilege, they are not actually talking about any one particular person. You are fully able to be white, male, privileged, and still be an ally to those who do not benefit as much from the power structures in our society. Instead of feeling per…

But people are not agreeing about the causes of the problems or the solutions. So if you say "Yeah, but I'm not talking about all white people" you should be able to exchange that to "black" instead and still not be racist for it not to be racist for example. People are very similar. It is nice to find a common enemy and it is nice to generalize. So on 4chan people analyze and find that black people are the problem a…

This misunderstands what race even is though. Race is a made up thing (created by white people) to give white people more power. To criticize white people for that is to critisize the system itself and critisize them for creating and continuing to allow the system of racism to exist.

To say negative things about black people is sort of like victim blaming and it makes things worse.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#422
post #378

My own concerns are different. I'm in my 50s now, happily married for over 25 years, with a terrific social life. I'm not at all lonely or isolated. It's my children that I worry about. They're boy/girl twins, now 25. My daughter is in the process of breaking up with the boyfriend she's lived with for the past two years, and moving back home to re-settle her life. She has a career, and wants to get married and start…

Should consider looking into an F3 workout group. Totally free men’s group.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#423
post #378

My own concerns are different. I'm in my 50s now, happily married for over 25 years, with a terrific social life. I'm not at all lonely or isolated. It's my children that I worry about. They're boy/girl twins, now 25. My daughter is in the process of breaking up with the boyfriend she's lived with for the past two years, and moving back home to re-settle her life. She has a career, and wants to get married and start…

Your daughter will be ok. She can go anywhere and immediately find social groups and have no issues finding dates — if she gets online she can literally have hundreds or thousands of men ready to take her out. It’s completely opposite for most men — isolated and hard to find social circles.

It’s easy for women to find dates. Much harder to find competent potential life partners who want to start a family.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The feelings of “you’re a white male and you work in tech and you are wealthy you are a SATAN” is just becoming too much :( This is why "It's okay to be white" is a serious message, not just "a meme" or "trolling". Because, really, it is okay. You're not doing anything wrong! Don't let anyone BS you otherwise.

It's fascinating to watch the response that colleges and communities will make to seeing those signs. They call the sign racist, which is insane. It's like the powers that be are trying to establish that if you're white, you are automatically racist and need to constantly be in a state of shame and guilt. If you attempt to seek even the tiniest bit of pride in your race, you are a bad person.

That's because it's a dog whistle. I am a straight white male and I never feel discriminated against in any way. You guys need to get over yourselves

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#425
post #378

My own concerns are different. I'm in my 50s now, happily married for over 25 years, with a terrific social life. I'm not at all lonely or isolated. It's my children that I worry about. They're boy/girl twins, now 25. My daughter is in the process of breaking up with the boyfriend she's lived with for the past two years, and moving back home to re-settle her life. She has a career, and wants to get married and start…

You know a LOT about life and family formation. Sooooo, teach your kids.

You've identified some of their worst problems and no doubt have solutions that would work for you, so teach them what you know.

For your daughter, lots of men DO want good love, home, and family -- she just needs to find one, likely 10-15 years older than she is (for the reason for the age difference, that needs some discussion I omit here). Where to find them? Try some parts of the educational institutions -- look for students or more likely the professors. And, try churches and their young adult groups. Volunteer in some promising organizations and meet men there. Get a job where meeting candidate men is likely. Get some girlfriends and swap ideas and lead with them. Try on-line. And I'm no expert: She should get with some experts.

For your son, let him mature until his 30s, help him do that, socially, financially, in general maturity, and then have him meet a girl 10-20 years younger. If she is 20 years younger, then he will have to date her until she is 18 or so, but that's okay, too (just why needs some discussion omitted here). Mother nature and the lawyers agree: A women of 18 is old enough to get married, have kids, and do well at both.

Then do your best as a grandfather: One of the biggest reasons the US just SUCKS for family formation (which it does, with the birth rate so low we're rapidly going extinct, literally) is that the parents don't get enough help from the grandparents. Or, one of the main ways a woman of 18 can be good at motherhood and marriage is that she has her mother, father, aunts, sisters, girlfriends, etc. all helping her.

I read stacks of books about marriage. Far and away the best book I found was E. Fromm, The Art of Loving. It's famous, highly respected in the clinical psychology community, written in Vienna in 1946 (amazing that anything good happened in Vienna in 1946), is short, is easy to read except need to read it several times and between readings think and compare with examples you have seen in life.

In Fromm, can see explanations of the couple (i) gives knowledge (thoughts and feelings) of themselves (often the most intimate part of the relationship), (ii) care about each other, (iii) respect each other, and (iv) respond to each other. Sooooo, can take (i)-(iv) and have a secret scorecard -- she how well she does on all four! Won't find a lot of really good grades on all four! But all four are easy if really want a good marriage, and often natural, that is, just happen spontaneously, when the feelings are really good. And if do well on all four, will likely zoom to the top 1% couples club. Then have activities, accomplishments, memories, traditions that like a lot, don't want to lose, can't get anywhere else, and that will bond the two together. Do well on those and move to the top 1 in 10,000 couples club. And pay attention to the traditional start of the marriage:

"We gather together to join this man and this women with the bonds of Holy matrimony."

So, there's supposed to be some joining and bonding -- actually a lot of both. It's not supposed to be just a tennis doubles team or two scorpions in a bottle.

A lot of classic movies have some good insight into what makes women tick in love, home, marriage, and motherhood. So, go for

Roman Holiday,

Gone with the Wind,

Father's Little Dividend

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR-OkcqI8NU

and two Hallmark chick flicks

The Magic of Ordinary Days

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8AvLMIElKU

Autumn Dreams

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI-ikF-Bdrg

In each of these, can see where the women are mostly interested in love, home, and marriage and where, instead, they are mostly interested in something else. The last two, the chick flicks, make this interest dichotomy really clear -- the women start out with biggie interests OTHER than love, home, and marriage and, at the end of the movies, as they achieve success, they are putting love, home, and marriage first and the other interests secondary or lower. So, the suggestion is clear: She was going for a Ph.D. but that was largely INSTEAD of love, home, and marriage, and when she got love, ..., the Ph.D. was set aside. There is a hint, can debate, that a women going for a Ph.D. does that because she is NOT doing well with love, home, and marriage -- again need to debate that point, but the movies seem to have a clear position.

So, in these movies there is some art as in "the communication, interpretation of human experience, emotion" with some good examples but also a lot of ambiguity. But if watch them all and compare and see what is in common, then will begin to see some of how women tick. Your son should do that. Maybe have him write some essays on what he concludes about women. After each movie, discuss with him the lessons you see in the movies about women. Hollywood is this and that, good and bad, but on some things, especially how women tick, the best of Hollywood, IMHO is just terrific, some of the best there is. I never cease to be amazed at the directors who were famous for directing women in movies -- how the heck they knew so much and got it up on the screen so that even naive boys could understand it. To be a husband in a good family just MUST have some good understanding of females, for the wife and the kids, the daughters and what teach the sons -- hint, as Fromm wrote: "Men and women deserve equal respect as persons but are not the same". Expert grand understatement of the century.

Why need to understand? Because due to parts of the economy, transportation, and more the old patterns that DID work have broken down. Now largely have to build starting with nothing in norms, expectations, traditions, etc.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#426
post #407
post #378

My own concerns are different. I'm in my 50s now, happily married for over 25 years, with a terrific social life. I'm not at all lonely or isolated. It's my children that I worry about. They're boy/girl twins, now 25. My daughter is in the process of breaking up with the boyfriend she's lived with for the past two years, and moving back home to re-settle her life. She has a career, and wants to get married and start…

I'm sorry to say this, but the tone in your voice towards your son sounds more detached than it should in my opinion. I mean, why would you let him slip into that bleak future you're describing for him? Shouldn't you be the one to wake him up, especially if he lives under your roof. I get it if you don't believe in discipline, but I think that's what is required here (or at least fatherly guidance).

Yeah can't you just... kick him out?

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone in the same area, I'm curious if you did this post-grad-school? I can't imagine the co-ops in e.g. Kerrytown are very welcoming of non-students, but I don't know.

I lived next door to the co-op at State and Catherine, and there were a few people who lived there who were in their late thirties and definitely not students. I don't know about _all_ of them, but some definitely don't care if you are a student or not.

Unless things have changed in ways that seem very unlikely, every ICC house "cares" in that non-students need house approval and students (generally?) don't. But houses will certainly vary in terms of how easy it is to get that approval. They will also vary along many, many other axes.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#428
post #378

My own concerns are different. I'm in my 50s now, happily married for over 25 years, with a terrific social life. I'm not at all lonely or isolated. It's my children that I worry about. They're boy/girl twins, now 25. My daughter is in the process of breaking up with the boyfriend she's lived with for the past two years, and moving back home to re-settle her life. She has a career, and wants to get married and start…

But, why you let your 25 year old son live in your house? You should have been kicked him out years ago. He can not adult ever if parents are pampering him forever.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#429
post #378

My own concerns are different. I'm in my 50s now, happily married for over 25 years, with a terrific social life. I'm not at all lonely or isolated. It's my children that I worry about. They're boy/girl twins, now 25. My daughter is in the process of breaking up with the boyfriend she's lived with for the past two years, and moving back home to re-settle her life. She has a career, and wants to get married and start…

If it makes you feel better, I was still living with my parents at 24 and had never had a girlfriend and I am now happily married with two kids. Some people are late bloomers.

Moved from home early but didn't get a girlfriend until I got engaged somewhere after I was 25.

I've now been married for over a decade and we have more than two kids, - together ;-)

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#430

I would argue that the decline of the family is directly linked to feminism, or better stated, the liberation of women from the home and from conservative sexual values. The two forces behind that are birth control and women entering the work force. These two are magnified by online dating and social media. I am not saying at all that these are bad things, just that we have yet to see the true effects of feminism on…

In the words of my LTR (a gorgeous and professionally successful woman) "Feminism was the worst thing that happened to women."

I am curious how do you and your LTR define feminism. Nobody is forcing anyone to choose career over family. That would be anti-feminist.

I never viewed feminism as mutually exclusive of having a family or a career. I might just be more mellow than everyone else. Feminism just means that men and women deserve equal opportunity and respect. Why is this the worst thing?

I might have an advantage over everyone else since my parents grew up in the great depression. All of the women in my family worked often because of hardship. One grandmother married a very bad man and ended up becoming a hairdresser and opening a salon to support my mother. Another grandmother had a sick husband and had to take over his business. My father also had an illness and although he continued to work they both agreed that my mother needed to finish her education and go back to work. Nobody made such a big deal about it since the women were also supporting the family. In fact, in most societies the women support the family working or not. This is the norm.

When my husband and I got married we I was still in school so our whole life was ahead of us. We agreed that I would finish school first only because I was only a year from graduation. Then he finished school. We both agreed that having a family was important so we both prioritized children. We both had awesome careers, but I never let go of the fact that family is more important than career. My husband and I are still feminists.

In my daughters case she decided to stay at home with her three boys. Her awesome husband is still very much involved with his boys. They are both still feminists.

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