The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#161

Post by bazooka_penguin » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:34 PM UTC

0xDEFC0DE wrote: post #18

codingslave wrote: post #7

I would argue that the decline of the family is directly linked to feminism, or better stated, the liberation of women from the home and from conservative sexual values. The two forces behind that are birth control and women entering the work force. These two are magnified by online dating and social media. I am not saying at all that these are bad things, just that we have yet to see the true effects of feminism on…

Notable mention for flat/declining wages since the average cost of raising kids probably doesn't get cheaper as time goes on. Imaging paying your you and your spouse's student loans, then having two kids and paying their student loans or putting that debt on their shoulders. Much easier before tuition skyrocketed. Healthcare prices are a consideration too.

Real wages, wages adjusted for inflation, have been flat. So people arent exactly getting poorer (on average) in the US. You're right to point some stuff out, medical care and housing have inflated at disproportionately high rates. Higher education as well, but that's elective. Problem is even in countries, like several European states, that offer state incentives or support or regulation to take the load off parents, birthrates are still low among the educated and well to do natives. In fact I'm pretty sure that's a general trend across the world, the poor and less educated are typically more likely to have kids than people who should be financial more capable of supporting kid, at least up to a certain level.

So economics is probably a weak explanation. Personal freedoms, especially for women, is probably the root cause of low birthrates.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#162

Post by nugget » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:34 PM UTC

SoylentOrange wrote: post #101

nugget wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the risk of wading into deeply controversal territory, I'll add some personal observations. One of the harsh realities I have seen is that it's very difficult for women to "have it all" meaning a fulfilling personal, family, and professional life, especially in the most competitive fields. Yet for many years this idea has persisted in a mythical sense as broadly achievable. I am now in my late 30s. I've watched my…

I have a serious question for you, curious on your answer. Can men “have it all”? Is “having it all” different for men than women? My experience is that men are able to “have it all” often at the cost of their spouse making sacrifices to stay at home, with the implicit idea that this is the way things are meant to be. If both people in a relationship try to “have it all”, some sacrifices do have to be made (speaking…

I mentioned women since I was replying to a specific observation in the parent comment. It's difficult for men to "have it all" also. An advantage men generally have is more time to reproduce. They can spend a couple decades checking off the "professional career" box and then settle down in their 40s and have a family, and scale back work (or leverage prior accomplishments and position for forward autonomy and flexibility) at the same time to accommodate this new life. Although society is much more supportive of male parents than female parents in the workforce, when it comes down to it a man is no more capable of working (some obscene number of) hours/week professionally and "having it all" than a woman is. Workaholic men with stay at home spouses may appear to have more than they do, when in reality they may be guests in their own homes. You always have to sacrifice something.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#163

Post by rayiner » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

xenospn wrote: post #129

residentfoam wrote: post #106

I have been lucky enough to be able to work and live in several countries around the world. One thing in common I noticed in all these places is that guys and girls don't have time and don't want to commit to a stable long relation. They invest pretty much themselves and their time in their career, traveling , parties, dogs, cats and bitcoins :) ! The mantra is to get rich and retire at 40 years old! Travel the world…

I think having kids is scientifically proven to make you unhappy and greatly increase your stress levels. It’s no wonder people just put off having kids until they can, or pass on having them altogether.

It's very complicated. Having kids at home makes you less happy (because they're work). But men who have had kids are significantly happier than men who never had kids once the kids are out of the house: https://ifstudies.org/blog/does-having-children-make-people-...

> By the time the 2016 survey rolled around, fathers were 40% more likely than childless men to see themselves as very happy.

"Happiness" is also not the right concept here. Having kids doesn't necessarily make you "happy." But it's something people almost universally want: https://news.gallup.com/poll/164618/desire-children-norm.asp....

By age 45, 86% of people have had kids, and only 6% of those wish they had not had kids. By contrast, out of those who didn't have kids, more than half wish they did. Even more remarkably, among all adults age 45+, as many people wish they had five or more kids as wish they had no kids (11%).

There is pretty much no other life choice (college, career, etc.) that almost every body does that almost nobody regrets.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#164

Post by criddell » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

taway060619 wrote: post #90

I’ve been feeling a pretty intense sort of depression and loneliness for the last month or so. The feelings of “you’re a white male and you work in tech and you are wealthy you are a SATAN” is just becoming too much :(. I volunteer a tremendous amount in education, where I’m the only male I generally even see in my field, and I constantly have to listen to my coworkers gleefully talk about how excited they are at how…

> I am everything wrong with the world because I am an evil, cis, white, monogamous, straight male.

Maybe work on the part about being evil. The rest of the the things you listed grant you an advantage in life even today.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#165

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

SuddsMcDuff wrote: post #115

jonahrd wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a piece of advice: try to take a step back and listen more carefully to the complaints you're hearing. When people talk about dismantling the patriarchy, or about racial privilege, they are not actually talking about any one particular person. You are fully able to be white, male, privileged, and still be an ally to those who do not benefit as much from the power structures in our society. Instead of feeling per…

Take for example a comment from this very thread: "Feminism has brought about a lot of changes, but I don't think we can lay this one at the feet of women trying to escape their compulsory reliance on unreliable, selfish, and inconsiderate men." How should we take a step back and listen more carefully to this? How are we to interpret that other than as an attack on all men?

[deleted]

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#166

Post by Chirael » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

WhompingWindows wrote: post #2

I felt loneliness acutely this week. I live alone, spend most evenings alone, and on top, work's coding and research has been slow for 2 weeks. Collaborators are at conferences and on vacation, so I had much less work and much less face-to-face contact than usual. Given that I code on my own, distribute analyses via email, and occasionally meet if people are around, I barely talked to people some days this week. Goin…

I’m in Providence but have no idea how to send a DM on HN; if you can see the email on my profile feel free to send something

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#167

Post by kaitai » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

xenospn wrote: post #129

residentfoam wrote: post #106

I have been lucky enough to be able to work and live in several countries around the world. One thing in common I noticed in all these places is that guys and girls don't have time and don't want to commit to a stable long relation. They invest pretty much themselves and their time in their career, traveling , parties, dogs, cats and bitcoins :) ! The mantra is to get rich and retire at 40 years old! Travel the world…

I think having kids is scientifically proven to make you unhappy and greatly increase your stress levels. It’s no wonder people just put off having kids until they can, or pass on having them altogether.

The "science" you're referring to shows that parenting makes people less "happy" in any given moment while doing it and more "content" overall, more "satisfied" in older age. Moreover, there are significant country-by-country differences in these stats that seem to be tied to availability of high-quality, low-cost childcare and healthcare. One place to look for some overview of some of these studies is https://contemporaryfamilies.org/brief-parenting-happiness/

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#168

Post by claytonjy » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

dllthomas wrote: post #47

WhompingWindows wrote: post #2

I felt loneliness acutely this week. I live alone, spend most evenings alone, and on top, work's coding and research has been slow for 2 weeks. Collaborators are at conferences and on vacation, so I had much less work and much less face-to-face contact than usual. Given that I code on my own, distribute analyses via email, and occasionally meet if people are around, I barely talked to people some days this week. Goin…

> I can't wait to hit the phase of life with a partner and/or family living with me. You're in a phase of life where you could live with others, although there's no guarantee of there actually being a good opportunity near by. I spent a chunk of my 20s living in a student housing cooperative in Ann Arbor, MI, and for the most part it was a great experience. It was big enough, and enough of the population was grad stu…

As someone in the same area, I'm curious if you did this post-grad-school? I can't imagine the co-ops in e.g. Kerrytown are very welcoming of non-students, but I don't know.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#169

Post by baybal2 » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

I turned 28, and I will need a wife soon.

My demands are so high.

I only date cute girls with degrees in engineering, math, science or in rank of first lieutenants and above. And preferably with good cooking skills.

Re: The decline of the family has unleashed an epidemic of loneliness

#170

Post by CydeWeys » Thu, Jun 06, 2019, 6:36 PM UTC

KevinS626 wrote: post #150

residentfoam wrote: post #106

I have been lucky enough to be able to work and live in several countries around the world. One thing in common I noticed in all these places is that guys and girls don't have time and don't want to commit to a stable long relation. They invest pretty much themselves and their time in their career, traveling , parties, dogs, cats and bitcoins :) ! The mantra is to get rich and retire at 40 years old! Travel the world…

It's easier to sell to lonely individuals than a satisfied family. Hence all the crazy pressure to work more and be less... human.

You sure? People with families tend to spend more money (out of necessity). It's easier for people without kids to save up more money.