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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#421

Post by pharrington »

hype7 wrote: post #409
blackguardx wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How far does your scofflaw streak go? Is this different from adding law enforcement blocking controls to any illegal tech product? Should everyone get to decide what laws to follow? I think you are describing anarcho-capitalism, not libertarianism.

Yes, everyone should decide what laws to follow. Ask rosa parks or any poor soul unfortunate enough to be a citizen of nazi Germany.

The civil rights movement was in no way about the abolition of the rule of law. Hitler's promise of greatness actually did seduce a ton of the economically and socially devastated German population. Hitler was a known outlaw. Even if you can't yet think your premise through to the end, at least consider the consistency and truth of your own words.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#422

Post by CaptSpify »

rrdharan wrote: post #366
CaptSpify wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: After re-reading your statement, it doesn't appear you meant customers. Leaving my statement below anyway. > If you're still doing business with Uber in 2017, it's because you don't want to know or you don't care who you're dealing with. Or because I don't really have an option. Cabs are still terrible and require me to carry cash which I don't, and lyft doesn't work on my phone.

Curious, what phone are you using where Uber works and Lyft doesn't? I actually agree with the OPs statement as it applies to customers (at least when there's a reasonable alternative). I live in NYC so it was pretty easy for me - I deleted the app and switched to using Lyft.

Well, that's complicated but...

I currently use android, and lyft won't work without permanent access to my location and contacts, which I consider unacceptable. I'm supposed to get the ubuntu phone in about a week, and afaik, there's no lyft client for that. There is an uber webpage, m.uber.com or something that should work with it though.

This is all untested on my new phone, so I may be incorrect.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#423

Post by danielweber »

accountface wrote: post #142
striglia wrote: post #35

So I ask this mostly out of horrified curiosity -- is there any negative press or revelation that could actually sink Uber at this point? What would it take for the company to fail? We've seen: * Systematic flouting of laws in public * Even further hidden avoiding of laws * Sexism complaints across the board * What appears to be a pervasive toxic culture, inspired (if not explicitly encouraged) straight from the CEO'…

They're trying to become too big to fail, but aren't quite there yet. Essentially they're undercutting all competitors by artificially keeping fares very low and subsidizing drivers. Subsidies were the primary source of their enormous financial losses in 2016. Once the competition is completely gone (local cabs, and Lyft in some areas), then they can stop subsidizing themselves and basically hold a monopoly. It's the…

I simply don't see how Uber can be a monopoly. You need a critical mass of drivers, but nothing stops drivers from being on multiple networks. This isn't Microsoft doing per-CPU licensing.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#424

Post by pharrington »

DaUR wrote: post #417
prewett wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you also going to take the same generous view towards people evading State regulations and laws that you don't like? Because if you are only okay with people evading laws that you don't like, but they should obey the ones you do like, then you are setting yourself above the law. That way lies authoritarianism.

Not sure how civil disobedience leads to authoritarianism rather than the opposite. Also, by your reasoning, civil disobedience is never justified. And does Trump being President change your reasoning at all?

Civil disobedience works precisely by accepting the consequences of the law. This is the literal opposite of Uber's behavior.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#425

Post by jlarocco »

ForHackernews wrote: post #378
avn2109 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law." Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.

> I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Corporate citizens have an obligation to obey the laws of the jurisdictions in which they operate. If they find the laws unacceptable, they should lobby to have them changed.

I agree they have an obligation to obey the law.

I disagree that they should lobby to change it. I understand that realistically that is what they will do, but I don't think it's the ethically correct thing.

Laws are in place to benefit all of society, they shouldn't be changed on behalf of specific corporations, regardless of how much money the "donate".

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#426

Post by [deleted] »

ForHackernews wrote: post #378
avn2109 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law." Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.

> I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Corporate citizens have an obligation to obey the laws of the jurisdictions in which they operate. If they find the laws unacceptable, they should lobby to have them changed.

[deleted]

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#427

Post by [deleted] »

accountface wrote: post #142
striglia wrote: post #35

So I ask this mostly out of horrified curiosity -- is there any negative press or revelation that could actually sink Uber at this point? What would it take for the company to fail? We've seen: * Systematic flouting of laws in public * Even further hidden avoiding of laws * Sexism complaints across the board * What appears to be a pervasive toxic culture, inspired (if not explicitly encouraged) straight from the CEO'…

They're trying to become too big to fail, but aren't quite there yet. Essentially they're undercutting all competitors by artificially keeping fares very low and subsidizing drivers. Subsidies were the primary source of their enormous financial losses in 2016. Once the competition is completely gone (local cabs, and Lyft in some areas), then they can stop subsidizing themselves and basically hold a monopoly. It's the…

[deleted]

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#428

Post by danielweber »

alphonsegaston wrote: post #46

What if local law enforcement officer was posing undercover as an Uber customer as part of a sexual assault investigation or trying to track down all drivers in relation to a recent crime? This is framed as getting around restrictions on taxi services, but any time you proactively thwart law enforcement, you're inviting a lot of dangerous unintended consequences. None of which I'm sure Uber is concerned about.

If you want a company to cooperate, you give them a subpoena, and order them to keep quiet until arrests have been made.

When you try to play things on the sly, it's your fault if some third party thinks you're a rat.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#429

Post by repomies6991 »

eli wrote: post #353
rising-sky wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they actually weren't able to do this so accurately without disrupting service it seems. At least I think in my case, and it's part of the reason why I don't use Uber today: I had an Uber account for a couple months prior to this incident but never used it. One night, it was about 3a.m. and I had a bit to drink. A friend gave me a promo code to use, so I could get a discount on my ride home. I put in the code a…

That could also be a CC fraud detection algorithm

Highly probable. Uber has probably lots of problems with credit card fraud, as do many marketplace services.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#430

Post by yummyfajitas »

xg15 wrote: post #418
yummyfajitas wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a legal obligation not to flee an officer. However, even if you sell drugs or sex, you have no obligation to approach a known police officer and offer to sell them drugs/sex.

You make a distinction between staying passive and not helping an investigation (the drugs example) - and actively deterring the investigation (the flight example). That's a valid distinction to make, however given how much development effort companies like Uber and VW invested in their tools, I think those are clear cases of active deferring.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think you are making the wrong distinction. Fleeing a police officer is explicitly illegal, I believe the crime is resisting arrest or something equivalent.

Actively telling all your hooker friends to stay home because the cops are out is not illegal. Nor is it illegal to say "oh hi there officer" before your hooker friend propositions a cop. That's basically what Uber did.

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