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Immigration is about talent, not costs

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Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#411

Post by LLWM »

ntakasaki wrote: post #237
ep103 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're entire post is based on a strawman argument. OP didn't say that companies shouldn't hire non-American talent. He said companies should hire non-American talent through traditional immigration proceedings, and that the H1B program lends itself to an exploitative employer-laborer relationship, that ultimately serves to unfairly lower industry pay rates.

>He said companies should hire non-American talent through traditional immigration proceedings, What traditional immigration proceedings are you people talking about? Get a company employee to marry him/her and bring them here on a green card?

Maybe he means "move to Canada first"?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#412

Post by yogin »

There is another visa you can use to work legally in the US for 18 months, it's the J visa. It's suppose to be a "training/internship" visa, and is a good way to wait for other chances at an H1B, or a GC lottery (you never know). The US has a 2 year clause that prevent some countries from staying in the US at the end of their 18 months, but I was lucky it didn't apply to me.

I was lucky to get my H1B last year right at the end of my J1 visa, my application arrived on April 1st, and considering the number of applications they received, they flipped a coin to see if I was going to be considered... luckily I won the toss!

There's definitely a need for a change somewhere, increased quota, new immigration laws...

I also agree that it's about talent, every company is looking to hire talent, unless they're cheaping out (fortunately I haven't met any of these companies). Most companies I know (mostly startups) are actually looking at the local markets first, but are willing to consider foreigners if they are worth it. They don't mind the cost.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#413

Post by pm90 »

mabbo wrote: post #321
halflings wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "H1B Visas exist for one reason, and one reason only" ; "it's simple reality" ; "Without a doubt" ; "It happens all-the-fucking-time" ; "There's absolutely no talent shortage in the Bay Area" Presenting something as a fact doesn't make it one. You're basically saying that American tech companies should only hire Americans. That the facebook, Google, Mozilla, ... shouldn't hire smart people from other countries. As…

Come to Toronto. Amazon is here, and growing. Lots of other start ups and mid-sized companies. Canada is way less insane about visa hoops to jump through. We're pretty friendly, and the crime rate is low (our new Mayor doesn't do crack or hang out with gangsters). Most importantly, we're a country and city that likes immigration of smart people who want to earn high salaries, and pay our slightly-higher-than-America…

Well, I have actually been considering a move, not just because of Immigration, but because of all of Canada's natural beauty. I also kinda like snow and cold weather and maple syrup.

Here is one important question though: is it a city that you would recommend for young people (in their twenties)? Or is it nicer once you have a family and are looking to settle down etc.? And besides Amazon, is there any demand for tech workers over there?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#414

Post by throwaway989834 »

fargolime wrote: post #113
bradleybuda wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The unstated premise behind your comment, and indeed this entire debate, is that there is only so much "room" for immigration in the US. This leads us to arguments about how large the quota should be, how it should be divided, etc. This is a flawed assumption. The US has nearly unlimited room to accept immigration, and on average every single immigrant we accept would increase the size of our economy. Immigrants are…

Increasing the size of the economy isn't the best choice, though. We have too many people in the US as it is. More people, more money, more stuff isn't always better. (Using a throwaway since it seems most people think more people and skyscrapers and traffic and higher taxes to compensate for the dwindling resources is wonderful.) No, we don't have unlimited room, unless you're planning to not feed or provide water t…

> (Using a throwaway since it seems most people think more people and skyscrapers and traffic and higher taxes to compensate for the dwindling resources is wonderful.)

Are you sure that's a throwaway? Take a look at my username. That's a throwaway!

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#415

Post by malandrew »

_delirium wrote: post #382
freeqaz wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you enforce what market rate is? What prevents a company from saying that market rate is something absurdly low?

That's why I'd support allocating H1Bs by highest-salary-first, instead of via the current first-come-first-served system with a difficult to enforce "prevailing rate" requirement tacked on. Doing so would also tend to allocate the slots to areas where they're most in demand: if a company is offering $140k salary and wants an H1B to bring the person in, I'm more willing to believe this job has a shortage than if anot…

At the same time, I think it would be awesome to start a petition to draw attention to such an idea so that it does become part of the agenda somehow. If such an idea did become part of the national discussion regarding H1-B visas, it would be extremely difficult for those trying to get these visas to depress wages to argue against this.

I for one would sign such a petition and I know a lot of people who would (American workers and existing H1-B holders). It's important that the opinion of both groups is represented in the debate. Is there a PAC or other organization that would lobby on behalf of such a solution?

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#416

Post by LLWM »

x0x0 wrote: post #378
bduerst wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article linked to was an opinion piece against immigrants, hence the context. I also eluded to there needing to be evidence, which the op piece didn't really provide.

if you don't have evidence that h1bs are widely abused, and used to drive down wages, it's for no other reason than you're too lazy to google. It's also telling that you tar a neutral reporting piece discussing the impact of h1b visas as anti-immigrant, I guess because how else could you discredit it. I mean, right there in the very article you seem to have read is this: ComputerWorld revealed last week that the top…

You can also use google to find "evidence" that vaccines cause autism. Just because information is indexed by google doesn't make it true.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#417

Post by cylinder »

deskamess wrote: post #164
alyandon wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've worked at multiple companies (managed their websites) -- where we would temporarily post a job description to >appear that it was a fair playing field for local workers -- when in reality that position was definitely, absolutely >going to be filled by a cheaper, exploitable H1B visa position. I worked as a contract developer for over 10 years and this was absolutely the norm for the companies I worked at. It wa…

I agree... (was on H1). The core problem is that the sponsoring company is in control. Control needs to be moved to the candidate (worker). The H1 should not be tied to the employer, but to the candidate, and they should be able to switch employers by registering their new employer with the DHS (HR of the new company and employee act on signing day). H1'ers should be free to move at will and immediately after enterin…

If the candidate is so supremely talented they can get an O-1 pretty easily. Kind of ends this "H1B is for talent" argument quickly.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#418

Post by LLWM »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #220
jarjoura wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a hiring manager, I can promise you that your generalizations are sweeping and full of misplaced emotional verbiage. Since it is my job to hire the best candidate and even though my company gives me access to a world of engineers, I will still try to find the best with the least amount of friction. That means, someone who already lives here and can start as soon as possible with the least amount of demands. Talent…

>Nor would I want to hire someone who was desperate. If you won't, someone else will, and they'll outcompete you.

Then society benefits because those products are produced more efficiently.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#419

Post by jahmaiosullivan »

nostromo wrote: post #279
deskamess wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree... (was on H1). The core problem is that the sponsoring company is in control. Control needs to be moved to the candidate (worker). The H1 should not be tied to the employer, but to the candidate, and they should be able to switch employers by registering their new employer with the DHS (HR of the new company and employee act on signing day). H1'ers should be free to move at will and immediately after enterin…

Allowing H1Bs to bounce around (unless each job they take can't be filled by the domestic workforce) would violate the intent of the law. "The intent of the H-1B provisions is to help employers who cannot otherwise obtain needed business skills and abilities from the U.S. workforce by authorizing the temporary employment of qualified individuals who are not otherwise authorized to work in the United States." http://w…

H1Bs need to be allowed to bounce around because this is the core of the problem! Everyone seems to love to skirt around the real issue. The real issue is that people are brought here and they can't go anywhere regardless of how bad the system sucks except back home. In most cases the places they are coming from are in an even worst state so we stay here instead. At least other things aren't so bad. I came to the united states on an H1B and yes I was paid significantly less than what I thought I was worth and also well below what US citizens and GC holders were paid for a number of years. It was a tough time for me and I had 2 choices then, either go back home to a non-existent economy and get paid even less doing some menial job or wait it out with my crappy paycheck until I get a green card. If I moved to any other company my green card process would restart so guess what I was stuck. If H1Bs were allowed to move around, body shops would disappear overnight. Bigger companies that I worked at paid through their teeth for H1Bs but they were usually hired as consultants. I work at a really big company now (won't say the name) and there is no way we will hire someone full-time who can't pass our interview loop regardless of how much we are saving. It's too costly in other areas and almost impossible to fire them for non-performance. But we'll take a chance on hiring an H1B contractor that a body shop supplies. We pay the body shop exorbitant sums of money, body shop pays employees a pittance.

Re: Immigration is about talent, not costs

#420

Post by x0x0 »

ryandrake wrote: post #176
x0x0 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no shortage of talent; there's a shortage of talent that wants to earn $100 - $130k (plus 0.2% of an A-round company! Golden paper handcuffs! Whoo!) to live in sf, an area probably more expensive than Manhattan. Without being Manhattan, or having decent public services. Do we have a shortage of talent of the type I just described? Emphatically yes. Does that mean there is in any way a shortage? Emphatically…

In my view, anyone who tries to argue that there is a "shortage" of tech should disclose the compensation package they are offering for the tech positions they are trying to fill.

Aerofs -- and they've raised $5.7mm btw [1] -- is hiring engineers at an average of $98k [2]. System software engineers, presumably with more experience, get an average of $108k. In Palo Alto. Gee, I wonder why he has problems hiring?

[1] https://angel.co/aerofs

[2] http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/AeroFS-Salaries-E656975.htm

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