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Systemd redux: The end of Linux

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411–420 of 464 posts

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because it does not have broken half-assed binary only drivers by obscure vendor X that don't actually work. I've always found it interesting that Nvidia offers a more complete and stable BSD driver than its GNU/Linux counterpart. That said, AMD/ATI support is abysmal, and even Intel video is lacking compared to GNU/Linux. > Unsupported hardware is simply unsupported, rather than broken. That's a matter of interpre…

> ... and even Intel video is lacking compared to GNU/Linux. Not so sure about that, or maybe it depends on the situation. For instance, I've been running FBSD and Linux in VMs (specifically, Hyper-V/Win 8.1 on a Surface Pro 2). After updating to FBSD 10.1, I decided to try the Lumina DE (from PC-BSD). I've been surprised at the performance of the GUI under the constrained memory and CPU availability. It's about as g…

> I've been running FBSD and Linux in VMs

Then you're abstracting away from the video hardware, and not getting the same results as you would on bare metal. The only thing really lacking in Intel video versus Nvidia is proper KMS support; Intel video on FreeBSD works generally well otherwise. The FreeBSD Nvidia-provided driver, while closed source and binary only, is more or less feature complete.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a matter of emotions. It's a matter of having observed similar behavior in other projects which went similarly off the rails. Poettering's own track record with Pulseaudio comes to mind. There's also the GNOME project, which I identified as actively intelligent-user-hostile around 2004. It's been somewhat gratifying to see that particular perception bear out with time. There are other projects which have sho…

I could give a shit about personalities themselves, I really could. Then stop poisoning the well. But I'm also not blind to technical failings with roots in personality traits. And those are what I'm seeing in the systemd crowd and leadership. The problem that I see that most arguments against systemd are first and foremost about Lennart Poettering. And if technical reasons are brought forward, they can all be summar…

"Then stop poisoning the well."

I've dithered on whether or not to respond, but this bugs me.

Your response, again, typically of many systemd supporters, looks at the option of responding to the relevant points of my argument (personalities can have relevant technical consequences), and dives to the personality dispute "stop poisoning the well".

I'm not poisoning the well. I'm pointing out that the well has been poisoned.

The elements of the Unix philosophy which you allude to exist for good reasons, and violating them imposes very high costs. This is a lesson that those of us who've been around for a while, and have multi-platform experience (check on both counts for myself) are well aware of.

Monolithic systems transcend ready replacement. Generally you've got to toss the whole mess out. Pluggable systems avoid that. There are instances in which monolithic design does seem to be at the very least hard to avoid, but you'd best be very aware of this and defend your position well. Systemd violates this principle by assuming gratuitous monolithic nature and explicitly refusing compatibility and modular alternatives.

Tightly-coupled systems are similarly brittle. The classic case of this is probably the Windows platform as a whole. Among the best arguments for loose coupling comes from Steve McConnell's 1990s classic Code Complete (ironically, McConnell was a Microsoft developer). I strongly recommend you read the relevant sections on tight vs. loose coupling.

Binary logs (and binary file formats in general) preclude use of alternative tools. The Windows Registry (again from Microsoft) comes to mind. One of the better hacks of this I know of are Unix/Linux compatibility systems which treat the registry as a filesystem interface. This originated with UWIN (from Steve Korn of AT&T and Korn shell fame), and has since been adopted by Cygwin. The ability to grep the registry, process it with scripting tools (sed, awk, perl, etc.), and modify it (using specific commandline utilities offered for the purpose) makes dealing with that particular hairball _slightly_ less annoying. The lack of self-documenting formats for registry values themselves (a trait shared by GNOME's gconf system) is another fatal flaw.

Even packaging formats are subject to this. Red Hat (gee ... aren't they involved with systemd....) designed a binary file format for RPM which requires specific tools to unpack. Joey Hess's 'alien' links to the RPM libraries for this purpose, and a set of Perl tools I'm aware of has to apply specific offsets (varying by RPM version) to extract data from the files. Contrast this with Debian's DEB format: tarballs packed in an ar archive. This can be unpacked with standard shell tools, or busybox.

Putting together the concepts of monolithic, loosely coupled, non-binary, standard tools, I've more than once rescued Debian systems which failed to pivot-root from initrd by breaking into the initrd shell, unpacking, and installing DEB packages using shell tools, facilitated by the use of an interactive shell, busybox for tools, and the DEB format. I'm thwarted on several levels from a similar recovery option in Red Hat systems due to the use of a special and explicitly noninteractive shell used in initrds (which is larger than Debian's 'dash' used for the same role), and the binary format of RPM packages. Working in cramped quarters and difficult situations, I can assure you of which system I'd prefer to be working with.

Systemd's violation of these principles is objectionable because it's not necessary (see OpenBSD's shim replacement for functionality, or uselessd, among others), gratuitous (decisions are being deliberately made), and, as your comment above illustrates, the very valid reasons for not doing just this are belittled.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the more reason to be judicious in what new technologies are introduced. One of the huge benefits of the Unix/Linux, CLI, and Free Software traditions is that they tend to be very strongly preserving of established knowledge . Changes are incremental, usually additive, a reliance on scripting means that interfaces are unlikely to change, and new tools are very frequently drop-in replacements for old. As specific…

Wow, great comment -- and one that all who endeavor to innovate in systems should take to heart. As my former colleague Bart Smaalders was fond of saying, "the hardest software to upgrade is the software in our brains"; when inventing new abstraction, it must be done so sparingly and (as much as reasonable) by leveraging extant notions. This isn't merely to allow a technology to be readily understood (though that too…

Thanks.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#414
I think that SystemD is an attempt to put Linux on par with Mac OSX and Windows 8.X, and attempts to do that haven't worked in the past.

Like Canonical changing Ubuntu to use Unity and Mir, so that it was easier to use on tablets and modern PCs. It just doesn't seem to work and it drove me to Lubuntu and use LDXE with an XP like Start Menu UI.

Ubuntu doesn't use SystemD yet, but I got a feeling it will.

I am downloading Fedora 20 because it has SystemD in it, so I get some idea what it is like.

But I think every Linux company wants to become another Apple for some reason. They saw how *BSD Unix went into making Mac OSX, and they want to try and copy that with their Linux distro and right now this SystemD seems like a path to that.

It is like a change from free and open source to commercial Linux. We all saw how Lindows/Linspire tried that and failed.

I might go to ReactOS, HaikuOS, AROS when one of them gets finished to the right level that it is ready for prime time. All they need to do is port Apache2, PHP, MySQL and other stuff to those operating systems to be used in VPS hosts so they can be used as alternative to Linux with SystemD if it ever breaks things.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except that the problem doesn't exist outside discussions of except https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Init#Replacements_for_init this problem was noticed and was trying to be fixed for a long time, by a lot of people

Traditionally, one of the major drawbacks of init is that it starts tasks serially, waiting for each to finish loading before moving on to the next. When startup processes end up I/O blocked, this can result in long delays during boot. For a server it doesn't matter, leave alone "broken". long delays during boot is grossly exaggerated, because delays are mostly due to network errors/timeouts or file-system checks, bu…

it matters with servers too, billing-per-hour/minute/second etc

and my point was there has been a whole bunch of prior attempts at changing init, each one of those had issue with the pre-existing systems.

I am not telling you that everyone needs it, or that its broken. I'm telling you that the issues didn't suddenly exist just because systemd

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#416
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lennart didn't just submit the code and put it out there. He lobbied other projects to hard-depend on it, and lobbied distros to adopt it. Systemd didn't succeed where less poisonous equivalents failed because it was technically superior (it isn't), it succeeded because of shady back-room politics.

How dare he ask other people to use the software he wrote.

I think "ask" here is the wrong word, and you know it.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#417
post #393

Two distros that don't use systemd: http://www.voidlinux.eu/ http://crux.nu/ Void linux is a rolling release, has binary packages, uses a very good package manager (even better than pacman) and the community is small but very friendly. Crux is very minimal, and you have to compile your packages. I use Void Linux, and am very happy with it.

Thanks for that information. I am using Arch at the moment but I spent the last 45 minutes trying to fix a network problem which involved fighting with journalctl to see what was actually happening. Void linux looks like a great alternative.

I assure you void is a great aternative to Arch. I was with arch until systemd, and it feels like home, only smaller, with Arch.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#418
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with you that Lennart scratched an itch, which is the way all good software gets started, and others picked up on it. Where I think the systemd-naysayers have a valid point is around the tight coupling that has been introduced, and is still being introduced, between systemd and various other components of a fully functional Linux system. To take your "just submit a patch" example - say N years from…

Well, the very distro-specific bunch of scripts in /etc/init.d (or is it /etc/rc.d/init.d/? or /etc/rc.d? or a symlink to ...?) were some kind of tight coupling, too. Plus: This tight coupling did not exactly replace existing communication features. It created new ones. These are made use of. Yes, systemd is bringing lots of new functionality. Under the hood - that is why sysadmins love or loathe it and users mostly…

Say whatever you want about shell scripts, but that is not what tight coupling means.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#420

I think that SystemD is an attempt to put Linux on par with Mac OSX and Windows 8.X, and attempts to do that haven't worked in the past. Like Canonical changing Ubuntu to use Unity and Mir, so that it was easier to use on tablets and modern PCs. It just doesn't seem to work and it drove me to Lubuntu and use LDXE with an XP like Start Menu UI. Ubuntu doesn't use SystemD yet, but I got a feeling it will. I am download…

Which Ubuntu release did you find to be using Mir as a default?
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