Perhaps this is a controversial idea, but is this not just someone finally taking the tried and true Open Source "advice" to heart? That is, every time I've reported something is broken, wonky, doesn't work reliably, et cetera, I've been told, "Submit a patch.", "Write some code.", or worse, "Implement it yourself." Someone finally got fed up with the haphazard state of affairs in Linux-land. Fed up with the fragment…
Systemd redux: The end of Linux
231–240 of 464 posts
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#232The question why do we have this project and why there is such a buzz is more interesting.
But the answers doesn't belong to realms of system design or engineering, they are in more obscure notions of "business strategies" and "sales techniques".
It is a text-book example how to sell - "show them that they have a problem they didn't realize before, and give them the one and only fix". Fine. Except that the problem doesn't exist outside discussions of "why this product is good - it solves this and that".
Another thing is that it is an excellent strategy to "create a niche for oneself". Look, we are the ones who give you a solution (to a problem which doesn't exist). We are "world leader" - look, we have lots of experts, web-presence, lines of code.
There are so many examples in "parallel worlds", beginning with eco products or "fair-trade" coffee, you name it.
But you see, lots of people don't need an eco or environmental-friendly daemon which does everything "the right way". No, thank you.
Another thing, back to system design. If Windows has "registry" and there are millions copies of Windows everywhere, or Mac has that settings daemon (from which GNOME Gsettings has been copied) it doesn't mean that these design decisions are superior to plain old text configs. You could compile them and have an "intermediate storage" to gain a 5% more efficiency for application startup times, but this is, again, not a fundamental problem. Being able to use regular expressions on configuration and logs without any restriction are much more fundamental. And memorizig all the details of all these xxxxctl insted of saying something like
$ grep -R ^sysctl /etc
or whatever I need, is just an additional unnecessary burden.Most of the problems systemd is trying to "solve" does not exist. At least not BSD, AIX, Solaris, you name it. And, of course, there never been any problem with syslog, init or cron. They were *good-enough".
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it is a perceived lack of this kind of humility in systemd that has been so alienating for those who have a long history with Unix: it's not as if other approaches are being rejected so much as they are not being considered at all. I really have the feeling that people are using double standards here, especially when suggesting Solaris or Solaris-derived systems. Since systemd is implementing pretty much what…
I want to know how this even became an argument in the first place. It's not that I don't like systemd, it's that [insert affiliated party] is way too cocky It blows my mind to see people regress so far back into arguments that this because an issue of emotions in a technical debate.
It's a matter of having observed similar behavior in other projects which went similarly off the rails.
Poettering's own track record with Pulseaudio comes to mind. There's also the GNOME project, which I identified as actively intelligent-user-hostile around 2004. It's been somewhat gratifying to see that particular perception bear out with time.
There are other projects which have shown similar levels of arrogance, though mostly with more limited and self-contained damage.
And being prickly or hard to deal with has shades. Neither Linus nor Theo de Raat are pussycats, but both focus very much on technical issues and are generally highly responsive to specific technical complaints. Sure, they make mistakes and bad calls occasionally, but on balance they've tended to get things right.
The attitudes expressed by Poettering and Sievers in particular aren't simply cocky, but contemptuous. And they're getting called on it. Including by Linus.
I could give a shit about personalities themselves, I really could. For the most part I really don't care how socially awkward someone is if they're good at their job. And if they don't start going out of their way to do harm to me or others. Personality disputes in discussions bore the piss out of me.
But I'm also not blind to technical failings with roots in personality traits. And those are what I'm seeing in the systemd crowd and leadership.
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#234Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wait, so let me get this straight. You're an engineer-engineer, not a system administrator or a software developer. And you think there is a fundamental problem of qualification in software development, yet you lack qualification in software development. On your points: #1 is patently false, to the point of being extremely insulting. You've lost all sympathy from me at this point. Go peddle your baseless opinions som…
10 years in EE (embedded systems, defense industry), then 15 in what we now call devops/architecture. Experience is fine. I have no problems being arrogant about that. I've fallen down a lot more holes than a lot of people and know what I'm talking about. When I say tested properly, I mean tested completely. If you miss an entire functional unit of the software and a client reports it as broken, its pretty obvious wh…
I am still in the learning phase, but even I know that complete testing of any complex software is practically impossible.
So, how do you guarantee completedness in "proper" testing? I know you can't without redefining the word "completely". What's your definition?
Also see Impossibility of Complete Testing[0] by Cem Kanen, co-founder of http://www.associationforsoftwaretesting.org/
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#235>single parent hierarchy for namespaces Predictably, all the blame is laid at systemd's feet. The current churn is happening, because all of Linux's core developers (kernel and user space) are wanting that change...to push the envelope. For example, the current change in CGroup's namespaces are because kernel is mandating that the current cgroup access mechanism be deprecated. They want a single writer to Cgroups. Sy…
You mean this Kay Sievers? http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/04/05/torvalds_sievers_dus... - It's basically the buddy of Lennart at Red Hat - at least that is my impression from far away.. systemd may be nice but it's coming from Redhat and cgroups are changed due to because systemd folks wanted it that way as far as I followed that debate...
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#236Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exactly. I'm (obliquely) affirming your argument that the commonly thrown-around excuse of "you don't need systemd, you just need something that implements its DBus interfaces" is a distinction without a difference.
Is a system running Linux + Wine no different than Windows, just because it implements the same Win32 API? Is FreeBSD the same as Linux, since they both implement POSIX? There are many ways to implement the same APIs.
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#237Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
10 years in EE (embedded systems, defense industry), then 15 in what we now call devops/architecture. Experience is fine. I have no problems being arrogant about that. I've fallen down a lot more holes than a lot of people and know what I'm talking about. When I say tested properly, I mean tested completely. If you miss an entire functional unit of the software and a client reports it as broken, its pretty obvious wh…
> When I say tested properly, I mean tested completely. I am still in the learning phase, but even I know that complete testing of any complex software is practically impossible. So, how do you guarantee completedness in "proper" testing? I know you can't without redefining the word "completely". What's your definition? Also see Impossibility of Complete Testing[0] by Cem Kanen, co-founder of http://www.associationfo…
When your system consists of functions "A, B, C, D", I'd expect to see test suites for "A, B, C, D". In this case there were test suites for "A, B, C". The client found D therefore the test suite was incomplete.
Now if a bit of A, B, C or D suites were missing that would be different and entirely expected.
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#239Everything I read about SystemD is negative. Negative on the technology, negative on the people who created it. Nothing positive. How is it that SystemD is about to dominate the market? Who is driving SystemD adoption, and why?
Redhat, Gnome and Pottering. While no-one can know exactly what they're thinking, it's in Redhat (and other commercial linux vendors') interest for more software to be more tightly coupled to linux and not run on other OSes. And Gnome is mostly developed by people who work for these commercial linux vendors (in a notable contrast to KDE, which has a wider spread of contributors, including more hobbyists and a number who are supported by government grants, particularly in Europe. Which leads to a different set of incentives).
My impression is that Gnome and associated software is, by and large, the wedge which is driving adoption in other distributions like Debian; previous "faster init" solutions were often available as options but never pushed to default because it wasn't necessary; users who wanted a different init could install one, but all their software would work fine either way.
Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux
#240Perhaps this is a controversial idea, but is this not just someone finally taking the tried and true Open Source "advice" to heart? That is, every time I've reported something is broken, wonky, doesn't work reliably, et cetera, I've been told, "Submit a patch.", "Write some code.", or worse, "Implement it yourself." Someone finally got fed up with the haphazard state of affairs in Linux-land. Fed up with the fragment…
Or stop using Linux entirely and move to FreeBSD.