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Systemd redux: The end of Linux

blog.lusis.org

391–400 of 464 posts

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#391

I think the article got one thing wrong: That sooner or later every GNU/Linux distro will switch to systemd. I can think of three that most likely will not: Slackware, Crux, and Gentoo. Granted, the more that systemd binds itself to formerly modular userspace utilities and apps, the more pressure on those distros to make the switch, or else either fork every systemd userspace app at the risk of being left behind. But…

I'm also interested to see how things play out with OpenWRT. High-end home routers are starting to get a lot more powerful with the transition to ARM SoCs and NAND flash, but they won't be able to run any software that depends on the systemd ecosystem while OpenWRT is still supporting the massive install base of hardware that systemd can't fit on.

Good point. What is the systemd approach to embedded systems in general?

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#392

Perhaps this is a controversial idea, but is this not just someone finally taking the tried and true Open Source "advice" to heart? That is, every time I've reported something is broken, wonky, doesn't work reliably, et cetera, I've been told, "Submit a patch.", "Write some code.", or worse, "Implement it yourself." Someone finally got fed up with the haphazard state of affairs in Linux-land. Fed up with the fragment…

haphazard? fragmented? many places for error logs? half-a-dozen ways to configure X?

Have you ever run a linux box? How about dozens or hundreds of them in a production environment? I'm guessing no on both counts based on the nonsense you're spewing forth in your post.

If you don't know what you're talking about, it's best to just keep quiet.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#393

Two distros that don't use systemd: http://www.voidlinux.eu/ http://crux.nu/ Void linux is a rolling release, has binary packages, uses a very good package manager (even better than pacman) and the community is small but very friendly. Crux is very minimal, and you have to compile your packages. I use Void Linux, and am very happy with it.

Thanks for that information.

I am using Arch at the moment but I spent the last 45 minutes trying to fix a network problem which involved fighting with journalctl to see what was actually happening.

Void linux looks like a great alternative.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#394
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet, name one problem you had with sound on linux in the past year? That's just it. Linux sound worked fine for me before Pulseaudio, and FreeBSD sound has always worked perfectly fine for me. In fact, FreeBSD solved sound mixing sooner via /dev/pcm virtualization (while Linux chose to create the Linux-only ALSA instead), and has always had lower observed latency. Pulseaudio screwed up my audio so badly that for a…

To clarify, "/dev/pcm virtualization" means FreeBSD does audio mixing and re-sampling in kernel space.

That is correct. Let's look at the simplest form of sound mixing:

    /* A */ sample = (sample_a >> 1) + (sample_b >> 1);  //lowers volume of A and B by 50%
    /* B */ sample = max(-32768, min(+32767, sample_a + sample_b));  //prone to clamping
Obviously, the algorithms will become fancier (to mix better, to support multiple bit depths and frequency rates, to avoid popping if one stream runs out of samples, etc), but it's still an incredibly basic and perfectly safe bit of code to run.

Playing this up as a bogeyman for not being in user-space is FUD, especially when video card drivers also run in kernel space, and are literally thousands upon thousands of times more complex and error-prone. And now the big push is to have kernel mode setting for video cards (even FreeBSD is doing this), which I believe to be a terrible direction to go in.

I have never in my entire life seen a system crash due to audio mixing, but I've personally experienced plenty of video card drivers causing kernel page faults.

If people were even remotely serious about the protection of kernel space (and I certainly wish they were), Minix would be more than a footnote in history. Neither Linux nor the BSDs make serious efforts at microkernel designs. Not even passive attempts to run non-critical device drivers under ring 1. Personally, I'm really rooting for Minix 3 and hope that it takes off more now that it's gained binary compatibility with NetBSD.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#395
post #87
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that the article says that Solaris is the 'best of breed stack right now' That well-known paragon of SysV systems 8)

I'm a bit confused, was that sarcasm? Doesn't Solaris use SMF and not SysV?

Yep, I was agreeing through the medium of sarcasm. The latest (11) version of Solaris is also XML-ifying all the things; it's starting (in terms of XML config manipulated from tools) to look a lot more like AIX than SunOS.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#396
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet, name one problem you had with sound on linux in the past year? That's just it. Linux sound worked fine for me before Pulseaudio, and FreeBSD sound has always worked perfectly fine for me. In fact, FreeBSD solved sound mixing sooner via /dev/pcm virtualization (while Linux chose to create the Linux-only ALSA instead), and has always had lower observed latency. Pulseaudio screwed up my audio so badly that for a…

WAIT you NEVER had an audio problem in Linux before PulseAudio? I would have said the weakest link in Linux on desktop WAS audio. Now PulseAudio was released into the wild too soon by too many distros BUT it has fundamentally fixed what was HORRIBLE in Linux. (Previously a Sound Engineer and Record Studio owner) BUT I would say that Systemd is extremely stable and not broken. What people are complaining about is the…

> WAIT you NEVER had an audio problem in Linux before PulseAudio?

To be fair, I didn't say I never had Linux audio issues prior to Pulseaudio (whereas I did say that about FreeBSD.)

Back in '98, my SB16 ISA card would only output sound at 8-bit monaural under mikmod, and I could only play CD-audio with that passthrough cable between the CD-ROM drive and the sound card. Once I was able to get sound working well enough, the only way I was able to play MIDIs was through Timidity and Soundfont emulation. And until ALSA, there was obviously pain whenever two things would want to play sound at the same time. This of course was due to the OSSv3 author changing the license before introducing his own audio mixing, and all of those awful sound server daemons (esd et al) never really worked, since there were multiple daemons and each application wanted different daemons or just wanted to stab right at the OSSv3 ioctl's.

But once ALSA was established and working, yes. Audio under Linux at that point worked just fine for me. Pulseaudio was a solution looking for a problem.

> (Previously a Sound Engineer and Record Studio owner)

I won't claim to be either of these. I like to listen to music while I write code, I'll occasionally watch some movies or play some games, and I want Pidgin to make a chime when someone sends me a message.

In particular, I'm very sensitive to latency in gaming (emulation), but that's about the extent of what I need speaker sound output for.

> What people are complaining about is the philosophy aspect.

To me, the worst part is the backroom politics, the complete disregard for portability, and the lock-in effects of consuming other daemons and services, and making software dependent upon it.

However, I do also object to the design itself, as well as to the developers responsible for working on the project, and the attitude of disdain they present to the community at large.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sievers appears to be an unreasonable dick. Gunderson announces to the world that systemd's DHCP client is pretty damn cool. In the same post, he puts out a call for interested volunteers. Ted Lemon (the author and maintainer of ISC DHCP from its inception to 2003 [0]) asks for the location of the project's source repo. Sievers replies with a LMGTFY link that doesn't even answer Lemon's question. Lemon politely criti…

What you've just mentioned here is what scares me most about systemd. Not its tight coupling, not its bugs, not its philosophy - all of these things are arguable and in most cases fixable. The project being run by people who hold unreasonable and downright odious views who act like, frankly, utter asshats , is a much more serious problem. The Kay/Linus debacle is something you can expect to see more of from these fin…

I am not sure if you're referring to this, but I have seen so many instances where an individual joins a community and then systematically tears it apart by calmly and coolly promoting ideas that ~51% kind of like and ~49% absolutely hate, through a combination of personality cult and back-room coalition building. I have seen this happen in forums, IRC channels, RPG groups, businesses. It is a particularly insidious type of toxic personality because you can't fix the problem by excising them without alienating and losing a large chunk of your community.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#398
post #52
post #2

One thing I've realized about the Linux community through all this systemd flame warring is how unbelievably conservative a large subsection of it is. There's this huge so-called "neckbeard" continent that views anything architecturally beyond the 1980s as a huge affront to Unix. IMHO I kind of shrug at this, since Unix was never really all that great to begin with. Unix won because the only commercially viable and w…

> Unix won because the only commercially viable and well supported alternative was Windows, Unix didn't beat Windows. Unix beat VMS and LISP machines and AS/400 and various other minicomputer operating systems. In fact, if we're talking about mainline commercial Unixes, NT started beating the shit out of them in the late 90s - if Unix lovers hadn't had the free ixen (Linux, BSDs) to fall back on it would be a sad sta…

>AS/400

Hey now, I'll have you know AS/400 is still alive in going in my workplace! We also have an entire position just for it's programming...

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh. Read my other posts. And my account existed before the systemd article was posted. More correctly. Someone assumed a new user was a shill for Microsoft, incorrectly... Reading your history, you might want to lay off the weed. It's linked to paranoia.

Nice, a personal attack at the end. I'll definitely not call you a shill now!

Ok perhaps the personal attack was uncalled for. Please accept my apologies.

Re: Systemd redux: The end of Linux

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you're ovitters, I never claimed that you claimed that Gnome requires systemd. You did -however- say that "...when Gentoo developers tried integrating OpenRC they ran into too many bugs." Your statement is not true. Stable Gentoo had its default init system switched to OpenRC in mid 2011. OpenRC has been great for Gentoo. "Apparently GDM 3.8 assumes that an init system will also clean up any processes it start…

I find myself reminded of a poster at a school toilet: "your mother does not work here, clean up after yourself".

I'm afraid that I have no idea what you're trying to say. Would you elaborate?
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