Free money for everyone, what could go wrong?
/s
Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
411–420 of 582 posts
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#412Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it's an interesting idea. Worth trying in a small country with competent government where a cockup has no effect on me.
Yes, in all for letting the Swiss screw up their country with this idea. Then I no longer have to spend energy explaining why this idea doesn't work.
Or it might work, and then you'll have a harder time with your explaining.
:)
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#413Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can assure you, I didn't use the term casually. > many muslim immigrants refuse to assimilate to the point of wanting to be governed by separate sets of laws That's a tiny minority of the UK's immigrant community. Drawing general conclusions from such an unrepresentative sample is intellectually dishonest. It's the kind of argument seized upon by hate-mongers.
It seems like you're the ignorant one here. Center for Social Cohesion: One Third of British Muslim students support killing for Islam http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-... http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/pdf/IslamonCampus.pdf
You are seriously quoting The Centre for Social Cohesion (now merged with the Henry Jackson Society - a "neocon think tank" which is connected with that epitome of rational thought, "The Committee on the Present Danger") and the Daily Mail (which needs no introduction)?
And I'm the ignorant one.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#414At the risk of mowed over by the crowd, I want to propose not calling it income. It's welfare. In no way should we equate it to result of someone's work.
"Income" has nothing to do with work, but rather a sum total of all consumption and savings opportunity for an entity over time. This is basic economic terminology, which is why it's...you know...actually used here.
But don't worry! Your just-world rhetoric (wrapped, no less, in a pseudo-controversial, woe-is-me-I'm-going-to-get-downvoted "stand", aren't we noble) is noted.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#415Earlier quoted context omitted.
The idea that there is a "poor, uneducated, unacculturate" immigrant underclass in the UK is a racist lie. Recently arrived immigrants often find themselves at a disadvantage, but 2nd & 3rd generation communities are often wealthier, and better educated than "natives". Five or ten years ago, I would have told you that this kind of politicised bigotry was entirely outside the British mainstream... only practised by a…
When did 1/3 of Italian or Asian immigrant students support killing in the name of Catholicism or Buddhism?
...when they were asked misleading questions by partisan think tanks?
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#416Earlier quoted context omitted.
The idea that there is a "poor, uneducated, unacculturate" immigrant underclass in the UK is a racist lie. Recently arrived immigrants often find themselves at a disadvantage, but 2nd & 3rd generation communities are often wealthier, and better educated than "natives". Five or ten years ago, I would have told you that this kind of politicised bigotry was entirely outside the British mainstream... only practised by a…
I'm not really familiar with the situation in the UK. My very vague understanding is that the native Britons are so bad, with their chavs and yobs and twelve-year-old moms, that no group of immigrants, no matter how poor or uneducated, could make things worse. [1] However, it seems to me that you feel so strongly about the issue that, even if immigration did create big social problems that wouldn't otherwise exist, y…
Obviously you are right, the situation is more nuanced. However, it's futile to debate those nuances with someone who is simply looking for sound-bites to push a hateful agenda. Example:
"LOL... Multiculturalism doesn't work"
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#417Earlier quoted context omitted.
Taxing a redistributive payment from the government makes no sense. Why not just pre-calculate how much of it goes to tax and then save everyone the paperwork?
I suspect it is exactly to prevent paperwork. Having two different tax-systems, depending on your employment status is going to be a huge mess.
A basic income does not depend on your employment status. Your point stands, however - treating every dollar the same can be simpler.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#418Earlier quoted context omitted.
> if you reward laziness, more and more people will decide to be lazy. Potentially, but I'm still interested in my thought experiment. What if a) It gets better, using some metric of better. at the same time as: b) Some people are lazy. Even if b) is a larger number than at present, does that matter? It doesn't to me, but my intuition is that there are some people who will not tolerate others being lazy even if that'…
you don´t need an experiment, it has happened in southern Spain. Thirty years ago it was a very poor region, land was in hands of a small group of landlords. It really was necessary to give a hand to that region. It was not a free money help, they had to work a number of days at the fields, and then they were entitled to receive a help. Fast forward 30 years, the system has been abused by the people (cheating, not ev…
This is a different issue, I think. Your point appears to be that it needs monitoring to make it work. Which may well be the case.
My question is: what's wrong with people just sitting around being lazy?
If the system produced a reasonable outcome for everyone in the country, but you could still see other people being lazy, would this spoil it for you?
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#419Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a Swiss I'm not completely opposed to the idea of basic income, I just think it's too early. Right now we still need most of the workforce to create our current level of wealth - our unemployed rate is pretty low, usually around 2-3%, and work efficiency is one of the best in the world - it's a well oiled machine where every cog still counts, including lower incomes. Even with the current GDP, paying that bill wou…
As a Norwegian, I.. agree, but still hope you'll do it. For the greater good of humanity (and Norwegians), Switzerland will make a useful laboratory. It might even work. Sorry, but that's how it is.
Our ancestors have put up a direct democratic system for a reason: In the believe that it will serve as a sufficient check on political groups not to perform experiments on our society that the majority of people don't agree with. Sorry, but there's just no way this is going to happen.
On a related note: In the light of recent history I more and more come to believe that exactly these checks are what's missing in the USA. We Europeans have a lot to thank the Americans, first of all the Republican system they pioneered - however our nation founders have gradually improved on their template. It'd be about time for them to roll out version 2.0, based on all the things that have been learned about shortcomings. Step one would be to not allow a single person to completely blockade a political process in congress.
Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult
#420Earlier quoted context omitted.
I see it differently. If people are receiving a basic income their performance at a job becomes much less important. Why care if you do a good job if losing it doesn't really impact you that negatively?
> Why care if you do a good job if losing it doesn't really impact you that negatively? That statement says a lot about how you think; everyone is not like you. Many people take pride in what they do and do it well regardless of compensation, it's not about the money, it's about the fulfillment one gets from a job well done.
I think this shows you are disconnected from how the world really is outside of fairly small bubble, just being honest.
Recognizing reality does not mean that you personally have some fundamental flaw in how to view work.