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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#411

Post by nonrecursive »

paranoiacblack wrote: post #159
peterhunt wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not about her being a woman. This is about responsibly dealing with a situation. "Exactly the manner she did?" No one has ever been asked to disclose a photo with faces on Twitter to 9k followers. The right thing to do is either deal with the person directly or escalate above them, whether you're a woman or not. Going straight to the mob is never the right answer.

> The right thing to do is either deal with the person directly or escalate above them, whether you're a woman or not. Going straight to the mob is never the right answer. Isn't this exactly what happened though? She posted on her feed and asked if someone could speak to them and the Pycon officials saw her post and did exactly that. You're treating this as if she posted on her feed something like, "Can the people wh…

She had many options. She could have gotten out of her seat and found a staff member to talk to. She could have sent an email. She could have called one of the numbers listed in the pycon code of conduct.

Instead, she posted a photo of some men on the Internet in order to publicly humiliate them. Are you advocating that people act this way whenever they get offended at a conference?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#412

Post by uladzislau »

PyCon's response to an inappropriate incident on March 17th http://pycon.blogspot.ca/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropr...

"Both parties were met with, in private. The comments that were made were in poor taste, and individuals involved agreed, apologized and no further actions were taken by the staff of PyCon 2013. No individuals were removed from the conference, no sanctions were levied."

Re: The PyCon Incident

#413

Post by protomyth »

kstrauser wrote: post #182
tiredofcareer wrote: post #32

I think all of us would agree that technology has a sexism problem. However , the environment in 2013 and the way, as a whole, it seems that we have gone about countering it is roughly equivalent to napalming six city blocks to get rid of bedbugs in an apartment. (Edit: On reflection, a better analogy would be napalming New York City to eradicate bedbugs. I am aware of the scope of the sexism problem.) This little sa…

> The decision to ban someone for smoking pot really cracked me up, given who I smoked pot with at PyCon 2012. I've said this elsewhere, but: The pot smoker was a few feet from me in an informal conference late one evening. I don't think anyone complained that pot was smoked at all. They complained that it was smoked inside a crowded room. I would've been as personally annoyed if someone lit a tobacco cigarette in th…

I guess the assumption that if its inappropriate to smoke a cigarette then it is inappropriate to smoke anything else isn't obvious.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#414

Post by shardling »

angersock wrote: post #243
gfunk911 wrote: post #47

I want to make a point that may or may not be applicable to this situation. Talking about sex is not inherently sexist. Making jokes about sex is not inherently sexist. It's inappropriate in a large number of places, but that doesn't make it sexist.

I'd go so far as to say that--sex and reproduction being the original design goal of any lifeform--we should treat sexually explicit jokes as something not worth getting bent out of shape about, provided they aren't interfering with the task at hand. A couple of dudes making stupid dick jokes to each other in hall of hundreds doesn't really seem to me to be that big an issue.

That would be an ideal situation in a world that isn't sexist.

But since our society is, we have to deal with the consequences of that power imbalance. And a lot of things that should in the abstract be harmless are not in reality.

Pretending otherwise is just silly -- or defensive, in the case of a lot of folk in this thread.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#415

Post by jasonlotito »

ratat wrote: post #391
jasonlotito wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Baseless? PyCon disagrees, and apparently, so do the two friends. http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop... So, unless PyCon is lying, the claims were verified. If they had not been, you'd have a point. If she had made the claims, but never went to PyCon and resolved it properly, you'd be dead on.

The claims were verified after the damage was done. My point is that at the time she decided to take this photo (seemingly just after she overheard the statement) the claims were unverified. Had they not been able to verify the claims then it would have been too late.

> Had they not been able to verify the claims then it would have been too late.

This is besides the point, as the claims were verified. But, I believe you are wrong. I think if she was found to be lying, the backlash would have been on here. Heck, her claims were verified, and their is still a much strong backlash from the community toward her and SendGrid.

I agree. Crying wolf is should not be encouraged. But many times before, people here on HN and elsewhere tell women time and time again to speak up when something happens.

Now, when one of them does, she's essentially told to keep quiet and handle it behind the scenes.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#416

Post by walshemj »

shardling wrote: post #366
BrianEatWorld wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The office I work in is entirely male, myself included, and just because don how I was raised, these types of jokes make me uncomfortable. However, after I said something about the issue, my coworkers, like most human beings, made an effort to check themselves. However, until you say something, they can't do anything about it. I agree its a decency issue and not a sexism one.

Adria did not initially raise this as a "sexism" issue from what I can see -- just something the made her uncomfortable.

well a few years ago a team member said "oh I cant go to a social event with the team" as he was upper caste.

I did not raise a fuss and get him fired - though we where all shocked.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#417

Post by mamoswined »

reeses wrote: post #385
mamoswined wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as "a women in tech" (eeew) I also agree. It's like people don't know the difference between misogyny, which should be unacceptable, and bawdiness, which is a matter of taste. She must be really sheltered. But why did this person's employer fire them? I certainly wouldn't fire anyone for this reason and I would hire someone who made dick jokes for sure.

I may be overqualified, but please review my resume... It's a poor decision, but if he was there "representing his company" (i.e., being paid while there) he probably tripped over a zero-tolerance policy on harassment.

People who really harass women know exactly how to get away with it.

Making a dick joke might be offensive, but it saddens my heart to even think that it might be put in the same category as some of the legitimate harassment that I and other women have experienced. Harassment that was devastating and insidious.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#418

Post by amw »

ceol wrote: post #374
tomp wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Her post is quite good, and provides a very good argumentation for her actions. For a moment, I almost agreed with her. Then I realized the problem, the same one that feminists are facing more and more; women want to be equal, but they want to keep certain privileges. They want to be accepted by men in tech as equals, but be spared sex jokes (that, btw, have nothing to do with tech, but have a lot to do with men; in…

> women want to be equal, but they want to keep certain privileges. What privilege is this that she wants to keep? Women are already bombarded with sex jokes. The fact it's such an outrage she spoke up is testament to that.

> What privilege is this that she wants to keep? Women are already bombarded with sex jokes. The fact it's such an outrage she spoke up is testament to that.

This times three million.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#419

Post by EvanKelly »

breadbox wrote: post #368
b0sk wrote: post #67

Here's my blame attribution 10% - The guys. Yea, a bit moronic to make a private adult joke that can be heard by others in a professional setting. But even in a real job setting, they'd just get a reprimand from HR and that'll straighten most of them out. 40% - Adria. It's getting evident that she went out of the way to take offense and sees herself as Joan of Arc (superiority complex?). She tries to make herself the…

"40% - Adria, 0% - PyCon organizers." Really? I mean, PyCon had a Code Of Conduct. If you don't blame the organizers for sticking to the published code, then how does Adria get blamed for doing the same? Doesn't that strike you as getting mad at her for "tattling"? On the other hand, if you think the Code itself is bogus, then why don't the PyCon organizers get a share of the blame for a bad policy?

I imagine this would be a non-story if the PyCon Organizers had been directly messaged or contacted and this guy was either asked to leave / reprimanded / asked to apologize.

As it stands, the complaint was made via a publicly posted picture on a heavily followed twitter account.

Everyone has the right to feel uncomfortable and try to alleviate that discomfort. Knowing of the Code of Conduct, Adria's decision to bring that to the PyCon Organizers attention is certainly a reasonable action. I think your parent comment thinks that regardless of how the PyCon Organizers were notified, they did the right (or at least acceptable thing). The parent comment suggests that they don't agree with Adria's method of contacting the organizers.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#420

Post by moistgorilla »

breadbox wrote: post #368
b0sk wrote: post #67

Here's my blame attribution 10% - The guys. Yea, a bit moronic to make a private adult joke that can be heard by others in a professional setting. But even in a real job setting, they'd just get a reprimand from HR and that'll straighten most of them out. 40% - Adria. It's getting evident that she went out of the way to take offense and sees herself as Joan of Arc (superiority complex?). She tries to make herself the…

"40% - Adria, 0% - PyCon organizers." Really? I mean, PyCon had a Code Of Conduct. If you don't blame the organizers for sticking to the published code, then how does Adria get blamed for doing the same? Doesn't that strike you as getting mad at her for "tattling"? On the other hand, if you think the Code itself is bogus, then why don't the PyCon organizers get a share of the blame for a bad policy?

From what I understand, she didn't stick to the code. It was stated in the code that no pictures should be taken without the express consent of the subject. Nobody cares about Adria writing on her twitter account that it's not cool to say stupid jokes. Nobody cares about PyCon organizers kicking the people out. What people care about is that she posted their faces online to 9000 twitter users which resulted in one of the people getting fired.
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