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Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

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Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#411

Post by bobwaycott »

truthtacular wrote: post #383
metaphorm wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

false. a sexist jokes is a joke that tries to find humor in the degradation of women. a joke using a puerile nickname for a penis does not find humor in the degradation of women. it finds humor (very little humor, in my opinion) in a juvenile notion that euphemisms for male genitals are funny.

I see value in both this comment and the one it answers. I'm just kind of trying to put myself in the position of sitting there in that audience, in my professional capacity (and probably in uncomfortable shoes...), and hearing "puerile" and "juvenile" jokes being whispered right behind me, possibly also with some muffled laughter. Since I wasn't there, I don't know how it went down. But I can at least imagine how th…

I just want to say I enjoy your input here. I obviously haven't experienced being teased and harassed over the size of my breasts, but I've been awfully close to the damage that causes (which is still very far away). It has had a profound impact on the way I see things, obviously. I really admire and appreciate you speaking out about it, and particularly the frankness and calm with which you've shared what undoubtedly must have been a really difficult decision for an 18-year-old in a society that seems excessively focused on defining sexual identity by what's hanging between a woman's shoulders and stomach. That couldn't have been easy.

I hope that none of my comments on this particular issue have created problems for you, particularly in my choice to make some rather stringent semantic and philosophical distinctions--e.g., between a sexist joke and an anatomical one.

Your final point here is quite in line with my basic sentiments on the appropriateness of the behavior in the given venue--a very poor choice that has, regrettably, resulted in some very unfortunate (and, I think, unwarranted) consequences.

Anyway, thanks again. I hope life has measurably improved since those earlier years.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#412

Post by Smudge »

andrewdupont wrote: post #267
nnnslogan wrote: post #255

She posted a picture of two guys and made public allegations about their conduct which resulted in their termination. To me this looks like grounds for a defamation lawsuit. Did they give permission to use the image of them? Did they admit to making these alleged jokes that she took offense to? There's something seriously wrong with this. I could take pictures of any two guys at an event and put it on Twitter and say…

You could've read this thread to find the answers to most of your questions. Yes, the two gentlemen in question did make these jokes; one of them admits as much in this thread, and said so to the PyCon organizers when they investigated the incident. Yes, they had an opportunity to defend themselves. You might not be familiar with defamation law in the United States, but understand that truth is an absolute defense ag…

You're right about the defamation. However:

> Yes, they had an opportunity to defend themselves.

That is to say, they had an opportunity to defend themselves to the PyCon organizers. Who, subsequently, did not kick them out. From what I understand, after discussing the situation and hearing both sides (and, presumably, their apologies), PyCon issued them a warning. At least one individual then left of his own accord.

Where they had no opportunity to defend themselves was against the public shaming (and subsequent outcry) brought about by Adria's twitter post. At least not immediately, and by then the damage was done (I see that later one posted a comment on HN).

Regardless of what the law may or may not say, or whether or not they crossed any lines (and I believe they must have, to at least some degree, for Adria to have felt so strongly about it), Adria really did not give them any opportunity to even apologize, let alone present their side of the story.

Perhaps their jokes were truly indefensible somehow. But it hurts the community when, instead of affording each other some form of due process and making an effort to raise awareness and education, we choose arbitrary scapegoats and pursue vigilante justice.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#413

Post by nawitus »

tylerhwillis wrote: post #388
nawitus wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"However, you are very selectively choosing facts to draw a picture in which men "have the same amount of gender equality issues (maybe even more) than women"." I'm not, really. Feminist discourse is based on the claim that women have more gender issues. They never really argue for that position. I've linked a list of gender equality issues (though my primary source is unfortunately not in English). Here's a book on…

>do women get raped more than men (not in USA) This is very wrong. The link you provide in the original comment is for violent crimes (including rape), not for rape alone. There is little doubt that women are more likely to be raped in the US than men. Here's a relevant study from the Bureau of Justice Statistics: http://bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1146 "Overall, an estimated 91% of the victims of rape and sexu…

http://nplusonemag.com/raise-the-crime-rate

"In January, prodded in part by outrage over a series of articles in the New York Review of Books, the Justice Department finally released an estimate of the prevalence of sexual abuse in penitentiaries. The reliance on filed complaints appeared to understate the problem. For 2008, for example, the government had previously tallied 935 confirmed instances of sexual abuse. After asking around, and performing some calculations, the Justice Department came up with a new number: 216,000. That’s 216,000 victims, not instances. These victims are often assaulted multiple times over the course of the year. The Justice Department now seems to be saying that prison rape accounted for the majority of all rapes committed in the US in 2008, likely making the United States the first country in the history of the world to count more rapes for men than for women."

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#414

Post by littlegiantcap »

cheez wrote: post #393
littlegiantcap wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She works for Sendgrid.

Ah, I hope they realize what a liability they have on their hands. For example, imagine if a developer ACCIDENTALLY looked at her while walking by. Can you say sexual harassment lawsuit? LOL. This woman is bad news.

All I'll say is this, and really it's what it boils down to. Regardless of if you think she was in the right or the wrong, she is a developer evangelist. That means she goes around and tries to get companies to pick up her product. After all this, I wouldn't get near her with a 40 foot pole. God forbid I slip and say something that get's misconstrued and I or my company gets dragged through the mud. With that being said, I feel like she's lost the ability to do her job. If she's an evangelist and the people she's supposed to be evangelizing don't want to be around her, where does that leave her or Sendgrid?

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#415

Post by metaphorm »

truthtacular wrote: post #383
metaphorm wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

false. a sexist jokes is a joke that tries to find humor in the degradation of women. a joke using a puerile nickname for a penis does not find humor in the degradation of women. it finds humor (very little humor, in my opinion) in a juvenile notion that euphemisms for male genitals are funny.

I see value in both this comment and the one it answers. I'm just kind of trying to put myself in the position of sitting there in that audience, in my professional capacity (and probably in uncomfortable shoes...), and hearing "puerile" and "juvenile" jokes being whispered right behind me, possibly also with some muffled laughter. Since I wasn't there, I don't know how it went down. But I can at least imagine how th…

When I was in middle and high school I was teased relentlessly also. I'm male so the teasing directed at me was not about my breasts, but it was still very vicious teasing.

I know exactly what you mean when you say "laughter can be super cruel". I still get a chill when I hear people laughing in the way I was laughed at, even when its not direct at me, even when its not direct at anyone but just sounds the same way.

But still I have a sense of decency, restraint, and a enough self-confidence now that I'm able to realize that the chill I feel is from a lingering bad memory and that I can act like an adult now and not feel bad because of cruel laughter. I feel like Adria Richards' reaction was deeply indecent, unrestrained, and revealed a profound lack of self-confidence.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#416

Post by _sylz »

Asa woman who hangs out at tech events, I've had people make all manners of offensive jokes around me. And a really great way to handle it is to talk to them about it. Or ignore it. Or talk about it loudly in front of them with my friends. Putting someone on public blast for something overheard, and then writing a douchey post about how you're creating safe space for future generations... is just pathetic. Be a !@#$ adult about it.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#417

Post by truthtacular »

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #364

Thank you, Adria, for fighting the good fight. I hope that the voices of support for you drown out the rampant hate that you're receiving. Seems like HN turns into a complete shithole the second a woman "has the nerve to choose to be offended" or whatever bullshit these misogynist assholes peddle. The benefit that I always see from situations like this is that it empowers the women who, in the past, have been too ner…

I second rmrfrmrf here. People are acting like it's easy or fun to be the one to stand up and try to do what's right. It isn't easy or fun and part of the reason people don't do it is that when you stand up, you become a nice visible target.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#418

Post by katbyte »

kumar303 wrote: post #384
wyager wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An immature penis joke is not "harassment". You shouldn't throw that word around like it's meaningless. Harassment is a serious thing, and this joke most certainly is not.

Actually, to many people harassment isn't a serious thing. It's just a "casual" snide comment about being cute or looking hot. Many men don't realize they're making women feel uncomfortable in geek circles.

Yes well i don't really like it how some women seem to think its their right to feel uncomfortable at the drop of a hat, ruins it for the rest of us. Anyone can feel uncomfortable about anything for any reason. they should toughen up and say something when they are, it 'll make life easier for themselves and other women like me who have to deal with the stereotype created by it. I am not a delicate flower that must be protected from all the things.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#419

Post by truthtacular »

metaphorm wrote: post #415
truthtacular wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see value in both this comment and the one it answers. I'm just kind of trying to put myself in the position of sitting there in that audience, in my professional capacity (and probably in uncomfortable shoes...), and hearing "puerile" and "juvenile" jokes being whispered right behind me, possibly also with some muffled laughter. Since I wasn't there, I don't know how it went down. But I can at least imagine how th…

When I was in middle and high school I was teased relentlessly also. I'm male so the teasing directed at me was not about my breasts, but it was still very vicious teasing. I know exactly what you mean when you say "laughter can be super cruel". I still get a chill when I hear people laughing in the way I was laughed at, even when its not direct at me, even when its not direct at anyone but just sounds the same way.…

I guess I just disagree with your interpretation of Richards' response. If you were made to feel that horrible chill while you were sitting in a professional space, if you thought about it and realized that the ones making you feel so uncomfortable really shouldn't behave that way in this environment, would you not have the right to speak up for yourself and say, "Hey, this is inappropriate, it's wrong, and it's not fair for these people to be making this space uncomfortable in this way?"

Maybe we just have to agree to disagree. That said, I'm sorry you got picked on, stranger. Fucking sucks, doesn't it? That shit's toxic, and it fucks with your head for a very long time. I am sending you an imaginary virtual hug.

Re: Inappropriate comments at pycon 2013 called out

#420

Post by chrisfs59 »

mr-hank wrote: post #202
selenamarie wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for continuing to speak in this thread. As someone who has not spoken up when I felt objectified or uncomfortable in the context of sexual jokes at technical conferences, I am relieved by how you've handled this. I wouldn't say I feel suddenly comfortable with speaking out to someone directly, but let's say that I feel a bit more like if I did speak to someone directly, they might not attack me. It's an unfort…

Unfortunately in this case there were more downsides than could have been predicted. I personally helped recruit 2 young women over the course of the weekend who were looking for junior/intern positions. They both seemed very passionate about development and well qualified. Before I lost access to my corporate account I was able to get one of their resumes to my manager but I'm afraid the other might have gone down w…

I'm sad you got fired, however, that was clearly no one's doing but your own employer, not the person who tweeted and not the Con. If you are as good an employee as you have described, then firing you, is the sign of a bad employer and you are better off not working for them any more.
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