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I'm not a Woman in Tech

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Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#411

Post by RonanTheGrey »

Dove wrote: post #318
fruzz wrote: post #14

There's sexism in tech, and to address it you have to call it for what it is. I'm glad her experiences are such that she hasn't encountered these barriers, but other people have, and they need these words and spaces. Take my previous job. Women were objectified on Slack. A woman was groped, though she didn't report it out of concern for the repercussions. In meetings execs, male execs would only address/look at the m…

> but as a group, it's undeniable that there's extra obstacles I'm not sure you can really say that. It's true, women as a group encounter problems with being treated as sex objects, and there are cultural reasons for that, blah blah blah. So women have a unique experience. BUT! Men experience a pressure to succeed that we as women can hardly fathom. Consequently, they wind up in jobs they need , in a way we never wi…

I like how you think.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#412

Post by [deleted] »

notacoward wrote: post #359
toufka wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is no argument that the ragged edge will bump around the ideal line - and that in a reasonable expectation of how society works. The question is more of policy and strategy in how to arrive there. And in that it is unclear that a "fast-and-overshoot" is any 'better' than "slow and steady" vs any other strategy. You have not shown that any one strategy is more wrong, nor more right. Nor is there any coll…

You're totally twisting and appropriating what I say. For example... > it is unclear that a "fast-and-overshoot" is any 'better' than "slow and steady" vs any other strategy Nowhere did I say it was unqualifiedly better. I was refuting your absolutist position that "never overshoot" should be a requirement. > essentially saying, 'get with the program' is unhelpful Never said that either. The point I was trying to mak…

[deleted]

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#413

Post by kowdermeister »

DavidWoof wrote: post #112

As a straight white male, this type of thing has never affected me directly. But as a programmer who's now in his 50s, I'm starting to get a very tiny taste of the same emotions. There was an article on HN just a few days ago about "why you should hire older programmers" which I felt to be deeply, deeply offensive in a way I found hard to articulate. Why are you putting labels on me? Why are you pretending there's so…

We can't exists without labels. There are no lab-white programmers out there pure as a function. I missed that article, but older probably meant more experienced. You shouldn't be offended, but it's up to you.

I try to avoid labels too, but I can't escape it. In a room full of firmware engineers I would be the "web guy", I'm fine with that.

There are "older programmer" meetups, it's just not called that way. A friend of mine visited a smalltalk meetup in London and he sad it was a couple of guys in their 50-s. He really enjoyed it.

I think it's much better to learn to live with labels (after all you can invent your own) than being constantly pissed off about them.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#414

Post by SomeCallMeTim »

kristineberth wrote: post #395
sremani wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important not to dismiss her experience as being extremely lucky. The thing is, there are lot of women like her, who were not harassed at their work places or have "grown-up" work environments with decent managers and HR policies.

Frankly I'd be surprised if she had never been harassed in some way. I know a grand total of zero women a decade into their careers who have literally never experienced some kind of harassment. Without being able to speak for her, I can surmise that maybe she just doesn't feel it needs to define her.

> Frankly I'd be surprised if she had never been harassed in some way.

1. She grew up in Denmark 2. She works in the UK

From what I've heard, both are far more progressive and egalitarian than the US. If the people you know are based in the US, that could be the distinction.

I think the problems here are far worse.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#415

Post by RonanTheGrey »

ducttapecrown wrote: post #396
Dove wrote: post #305

That's how I feel about it, too. There is no war. Women are not oppressed, men are not oppressors. We're all just people with problems who need support and compassion. Besides being morally wrong, a tribal approach is limiting. If you can't learn from, if you can't make friends and allies with people from all walks of life, if you must sit in your little castle with the few you count as your tribe -- are you not obvi…

>Boldly expect acceptance, and my experience has been -- you will receive it. Thank you for your 2 anecdotes! Perhaps since Susan Fowler [0] followed your advice and did not achieve results, you will give her anecdote the same argumentative weight you give yours. But there is a troubling trend I want to oppose. People seem to argue that getting vindictively angry and fighting for your rights is wrong, and that its be…

Susan Fowler's case - and the case of hundreds of thousands of other women, perhaps millions - are definitely valid and valuable.

I think though, that what the OP is getting at is not so much "Well, if your bold expectation didn't work, oh well" but rather, "this is not how we behave, and I have faith in you as a human being that you either a) do not want, or b) can learn not to, treat me this way. Rather than go and make my own tribe, I'm going to insist that you treat me well within this tribe we already share." By all means get angry. Just don't resort to separating yourself.

It's a harder road. It is not as glamorous. But the ends do not justify the means; because the means make the ends. If exclusivity is the tool we use, it is only to be expected that division and exclusion is what we end up with.

If the goal is inclusion, it must also be the tool.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#416

Post by dang »

root_axis wrote: post #399
dang wrote: post #355

> So you just don't like to hear opposing views? Personally abrasive escalation takes threads into flamewar, so please edit such things out of your comments here. As a bonus, the signal/noise ratio of your comments will get higher. Edit: fixed now, so I've detached this from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14703776 and marked it off-topic.

Fair enough. I can't edit at this time, but noted for the future.

I'll extend the editing window for you. Always happy to do that to help people fix stuff like this (in fact we may eventually build some software support for it).

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#417

Post by mistermann »

monocasa wrote: post #404
mistermann wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An event that had the implicit backing of the school administration sent a widespread message. If you check the thread you'll clearly see my interest wasn't whether discrimination happens at all , it's whether it is to the point of being literally ostracized, as was stated . >> Could you name a two or three so we have some idea what you're talking about? > sure.. Perhaps don't impersonate other people if you don't…

> If you check the thread you'll clearly see my interest wasn't whether discrimination happens at all, it's whether it is to the point of being literally ostracized, as was stated. You don't think putting the kid who was being 'uppity' in a coma doesn't cause imply ostracization for the others like him? Particularly when there was no repercussions from perceived authority figures? > Perhaps don't impersonate other pe…

If you look up the word ostracize in the dictionary, you'll find no association with severity of injury.

> It's hard to 'impersonate' on a forum where every post has my username on it. Are you new to the internet or something?

I might ask you the same, answering a question that was asked specifically to another person isn't how you "internet".

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#418

Post by toufka »

notacoward wrote: post #359
toufka wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is no argument that the ragged edge will bump around the ideal line - and that in a reasonable expectation of how society works. The question is more of policy and strategy in how to arrive there. And in that it is unclear that a "fast-and-overshoot" is any 'better' than "slow and steady" vs any other strategy. You have not shown that any one strategy is more wrong, nor more right. Nor is there any coll…

You're totally twisting and appropriating what I say. For example... > it is unclear that a "fast-and-overshoot" is any 'better' than "slow and steady" vs any other strategy Nowhere did I say it was unqualifiedly better. I was refuting your absolutist position that "never overshoot" should be a requirement. > essentially saying, 'get with the program' is unhelpful Never said that either. The point I was trying to mak…

Discussion of how best to achieve equity is a 'dilemma', and to frame any answer to the dilemma as 'correct' is not helpful. Starting off a discussion by saying, "As painful as it is, we have to accentuate and perhaps even exaggerate both the problem and present remedies" is a conclusory statement regarding a philosophical dilemma that disregards the author's perspective (as well as many others here).

Discussion quickly then becomes both toxic and treacherous even when you are communicating with those who share your ideals. Be aware of that price.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#419

Post by greenleafjacob »

bjt wrote: post #409
zjaffee wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one advantage I see beyond the traditional self-organization of various diversity groups is that an ERG can do a lot with a non zero amount of money, and influence within the recruiting department. Forced participation is never a good thing when it comes to this type of stuff, but to have the money to send those who do wish to participate to events that help those who feel excluded, to feel included is certainly…

What's an ERG? Google isn't showing me any meanings that would make sense in this context.

Employee Resource Group

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#420

Post by contenttypegeek »

illumin8 wrote: post #312
contenttypegeek wrote: post #67

Well said! I wish more people would think the same way. I'm a long-time (10 years+), digital nomad. My younger daughter (currently 6) grew up mostly in Southeast Asia, but also in Europe and to a certain extent, all over the place (we have been traveling a lot (duh)). It's interesting to observe that she has absolutely no concept of minority labels - for her, a Thai Muslim, a Balinese Hindu, an African-American class…

Humans have become very good at building in/out social groups. We even did it when we lived in small villages of homogenous skin colors. I admire what you're trying to do, but pretending that human nature is different than it has been for thousands of years is likely to leave you disappointed.

It's an uphill battle, I know... but one we have to wage to our best abilities.

I'm also trying to avoid being an asshole, but I somehow manage to fail at it almost every day :) That doesn't mean I will stop trying tomorrow, though.

It would be foolish to believe the segregation/xenophobia etc will ever stop - it would be still nice if at least the people being attacked would stop the self-sabotage by emphasizing, rather than leaving behind, their minority status.

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