Time to Take a Stand • Hacker News Board

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#411

Post by dinkumthinkum » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:04 PM UTC

mythrwy wrote: post #313

stonogo wrote: post #168

> This is very important people It's also complete bullshit. I actually live in a Trump-supporting area, and everyone I know who voted for him is ecstatic about this disgusting, offensive action. Trump is a bad person, and the people who voted for him are bad people, and I hope to God I 'push them away' as far as they'll get from me.

"Trump is a bad person, and the people who voted for him are bad people" I voted for Trump. I support many (not all) of his policies. I don't appreciate being called a bad person. Certainly you have a right to think this but I disagree. I won't go into what I think of people who voted for Hillary because I try not be mindlessly nasty but I don't think they are all "bad people".

Why is it mindless to think that people that support an ignorant demagogue to be President are bad people?

Just by appeal to pedantry, I think it is a very logical conclusion. You may not like it, but I don't think "mindless" is the right word.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#412

Post by thedevil » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:04 PM UTC

disantlor wrote: post #335

thedevil wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't vote for Trump, but I do identify with some of the beliefs of those who did, and I can tell you that the rhetoric I'm hearing from many of the most vocal left is pushing the middle away. I'm in the exact same boat. I don't like Trump at all and this move frightens me. But my friends who argued for Trump actually had more logical arguments and my friends who opposed Trump actually mostly just insulted the p…

why are we giving so much benefit of the doubt to trump and trumps supporters not only is this move ridiculous but it was executed with no foresight. now border agents are forced to make ad hoc decisions because it went into effect immediately. trump supporters cheering and claiming its just temporary, to give us time to "figure out whats going on" are deluding themselves. they rush through a ridiculous, anti-america…

Well, we definitely should not pander to them.

I actually think most people (Trump supporters, you, me, everyone) vote mostly based on identity (liberal/conservative, religion, race, open-minded, well-mannered, etc). I think Trump supporters mostly voted for the party that they most identified with, the guy they thought was on their side. And I think you did the same. (I see myself as unaligned and open-minded, thus I voted for someone else as I found both sides to be extreme and closed-minded.)

But, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe most Trump supporters are horrible people. But they are still people. Like you and me, they have a dark and a noble side. And, just like you and me, they are not going to listen to the reasons of someone who insults them.

So what do we gain from demonizing them? We only lose influence.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#413

Post by lordnacho » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:04 PM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #165

rcpt wrote: post #94

I know it's an extremely antisocial position but I can't help but feel like most of Trump's immigration policies and outrageous tweets are just bait to keep our attention away from big money legislation that the 1% wants to get through. For example, the Keystone XL and Dakota access pipelines were heavily debated, protested, and ultimately rejected under Obama but Trump just signed orders to have them built and Sam's…

I've heard the exact opposite, people saying Trump's orders on highly controversial but minor-in-the-grand-scheme-of-things pipelines are cover for his less tangible but much more damaging moves on immigration and refugees. As to your last point, it is not unreasonable to ask the president for evidence when he challenges a core pillar of our society. It is good that hugely significant yet baseless opinions are not co…

Maybe it's a lot simpler:

Shoot off a whole barrage of policies that are all controversial, and watch the opposition implode as they are unused to debating more than one large matter at a time.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#414

Post by throwawawaway » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:04 PM UTC

I realize this may seem alarmist, but I have to say it, nonetheless. Judging by the pace and effectiveness of policies being implemented, it seems possible that voting might not matter a few months from now. Whatever your action, it must be one of immediate consequences, however small. Call, write, donate, protest, support and spread statements such as sama's today.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#415

Post by protomyth » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:04 PM UTC

bratsche wrote: post #73

myblake wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How effective is calling local congress members if you live in an area with a strong progressive majority such as the Bay Area. Not that we shouldn't voice our option to our represented officials but I suspect in some ways it's redundant whereas things like raising money for national organizations may be more impactful.

It feels like it's not very effective, but that may be because there needs more weight of numbers behind it. If you're in a progressive area like the Bay area I can see how it would just add extra load to officials who may not need further persuading. I'm in Texas though. A very red state. I've been calling my representative and senators to voice my opinion on all this stuff, but it's hard to tell how effective it is…

> I have someone who just sounds like they'll add my name to a tally or something and says "I'll pass it along" and it's hard to know if they will or if that will help.

That is exactly what you are going for. They keep a tally on a lot of issues. Unless you are a big employer or influential player in your district, you are not going to get to speak to the Rep or even his/her senior staff.

Unions and some Orgs know that you have thousands of people call your Rep and voice an opinion. Call, fax, or send a letter. Show up to the district office and be nice, deliver your opinion, and hand them a letter.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#416

Post by SirensOfTitan » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:04 PM UTC

jowiar wrote: post #298

SirensOfTitan wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone in a position of power who took a look at Trump and didn't recoil with disgust needs to be exiled from civil society. And this well represents the leftist-elitistic-rhetoric that drove so many to vote for Trump (HRC's "deplorables" comment). Five year olds say "I told you so," adults find reasonable pathways forward in difficult situations. People voted for and supported Trump for a variety of reasons, let's…

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough with "position of power". I wasn't talking about "James Wilson, truck driver in Madison" or "Allison Smith, bartender in Columbus". It's the folks who single-handed lot have power to shape the world. Thiel can grab a friendly dinner with the greatest threat to humanity on Monday, and yet Sam Altman will gladly have lunch with him on Tuesday and joke about his "friends" as though nothing…

> Perhaps I wasn't clear enough with "position of power". I wasn't talking about "James Wilson, truck driver in Madison" or "Allison Smith, bartender in Columbus".

I suppose I don't really see much of a rhetorical difference. Proposing that we exile people who disagree with you is pretty gross to me. It doesn't matter you constrained yourself to only punishing the 'powerful'.

> Thiel can grab a friendly dinner with the greatest threat to humanity on Monday

This just sounds hyperbolic. Care to back this ridiculous statement?

> and yet Sam Altman will gladly have lunch with him on Tuesday and joke about his "friends" as though nothing happened?

People are multifaceted. As much as you'd like to reduce people down to single words or ideas, they're not that simple.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#417

Post by potatosoup » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:04 PM UTC

general_ai wrote: post #100

First, it's not a "ban". It's a temporary suspension until new vetting procedures are put in place. Second, it's not "Muslim". Muslims from all other countries (some of them pretty large, e.g. Indonesia and Pakistan), will experience no change in their ability to enter the US. Other than Iran (which imo shouldn't be on the list) we're bombing and droning all of those countries at the moment. It's insane to accept mil…

We've been killing Muslim families in these countries for years, even under Obama (a Nobel Peace Prize winner.)

Like or hate Trump, I'm surprised that now is the time to be outraged. It should've been ages ago.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#418

Post by grey-area » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:04 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #250

grey-area wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 1930s were full of violent protest - running battles on the streets between gangs of thugs on both sides (red vs Brown shirts). It helped Hitler portray himself as the law and order candidate. Peaceful but overwhelming mass civil disobedience and protest is better. The time for that is now.

And now much of that is virtualized or amplified and concentrated in terrorist incidents - like many other things in our technological society. Why would you expect political activity to have stayed the same when everything else is changing? Just as we don't go downtown to do all our shopping any more, many conflicts are carried out in cyberspace rather than in the street. go look at the comments section on major new…

I'm not saying it has not errupted (it has) I'm saying violence and the glorification if it (as in people sharing the punch a Nazi video) is a dead end and will definitely strengthen trump support.

The way to defeat him is to resist, massively, peacefully and persuasively - to persuade the nation that he is wrong, irrational and damaging everyone with insane policies like retroactive withdrawal of green card status.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#419

Post by Tulip68 » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:04 PM UTC

What Trumpf has done here is so far beyond the pale I think you have to look toward tinpot dictatorships to find a comparison. This is not a disagreement about tax policy, trade, healthcare, etc. Rather, this is an illegitimate, unqualified con-man who due to our anachronistic electoral system wound up as president despite the majority of Americans opposing him.

It's now clear that Trump wasn't kidding and actually intends to follow through on his promises to ethnically cleanse America of Muslims, latinos and various other scapegoats.

Therefore, the solution is extremely simple. Trump cannot continue to be President and we need every institution of our society -- our courts, congress, businesses, media, schools, etc -- to put aside petty partisan differences and unite on this point.

Now that we have full knowledge that Trump is every bit the white-supremacist fascist he campaigned as, it cannot remain socially acceptable to continue to support him.

The people who have supported him are complicit in ethnic cleansing and their beliefs are absolutely incompatible with the our core American ideals of multiculturalism, freedom-of-religion, equality and diversity.

Trump needs to be removed from power and in our personal, familial and professional lives we need to make it our mission to stamp out the hatred and intolerance which fuelled the rise of this white-supremascist cancer which we if turns out we never fully excised.

Re: Time to Take a Stand

#420

Post by normaljoe » Sat, Jan 28, 2017, 8:05 PM UTC

lacerta wrote: post #234

RivieraKid wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting how calling politicians is a "thing" in the US. It seems very inefficient, archaic and unscalable. If I was a politician, I would hate those random (often organized) calls, such a waste of time. The politicians are usually not learning any new information, they know about most issues, including the approximate percentage of the people who are affected.

Well, it is supposed to unscaleable. This is how our house of representatives works! The idea is with-in each state there are districts. Representatives from a district are supposed to represent those people within the district. An exchange trader who lives in NYC probably have very different concerns than a farmer in an small district in Nebraska. It is actually a wonderful system when it works. We have grown as a n…

The limit law is something congress enacted. The Constitution has a much higher limit based on population. Granted I don't think the house could function with over 10K members but then again it would make gerrymandering impossible.