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Men Without Work (2016)

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Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#401

Post by lordfrito »

sangnoir wrote: post #377
lordfrito wrote: post #215

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

> I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help without being asked. Could this be because a 20 yo woman was would be seen as helpless? Women are generally viewed by society as less physically threatening. Additionally, the lizard brain of heterosexual males will bias them towards stopping for a damsel in distress, even when the chances of reproduction are minuscul…

> Could this be because a 20 yo woman was would be seen as helpless?

Maybe. But it's the practical outcome that I'm talking about. Women are often offered help. Men aren't.

To me this seems a more detrimental situation for a man than a women. Not sure how this is being spun as a negative for women.

Or is the point Feminisim is trying to make "Stop helping me, I'm not helpless"? They don't want our help? This doesn't jibe with my experience.

Or is a right-thinking male supposed to say "Feels great when I can't get help, because people don't assume I'm helpless"? Sorry, this seems like a pretty crappy world to live in.

I personally know several women who manipulate like this to their advantage. I mean two of them have literally told me that they're being manipulative of these attitudes to get things they want from strangers. A young feminist family member recently told me she plays dumb sometimes to get men to do things for her, because since men already think she is stupid (her words) they deserve getting manipulated. When someone tells you they're being manipulative, believe them.

I'm not judging all women, but some of what I've seen ain't right.

And listen, I'm not here to rag on women or women's issues. That's an entirely different subject. My original comment is that the problems of men are largely ignored by society.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#402

Post by lordfrito »

hanoz wrote: post #317
lordfrito wrote: post #215

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

Young men always did fend for themselves, but I don't think it's right say they were left to . More like they were let to do the fending that came naturally to them, fending for themselves and their families, and generally being the apex of human potential in terms of physical and mental ability. The difference now is that they are actively stifled and suppressed by society, and from a young age, much to the detrimen…

Yes, this, and also there used to be a sense of "we're all in it together". Not so much anymore.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#403

Post by yucky »

dbingham wrote: post #391
yucky wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another approach would be to consider businesses as institutions to be governed, rather than property to be owned. In this case, no one owns the business. This is probably the quickest way possible to ensure no new businesses are created, ever. There would be no incentive, and if the government has proven anything it's that it is the least efficient institution ever created. > The cooperative would have to maintain…

> Indeed, and now we know why they're not significant enterprises in any way. This is just factually incorrect. Mondragon has 80k employees and 12 billion euros in revenue. Equal Exchange has 120 employees, $70 million in revenue and national scale distribution. There are absolutely worker cooperates successfully competing at scale. They do have trouble getting financing in a Capitalist economy, but they would not be…

The issue with "one worker one vote" is that it assumes an egalitarian world that couldn't be further from reality. CEO's are in many places overcompensated, sometimes ridiculously so. But the idea that a CNC programmer or engineer should get the same input as the guy pushing a broom around to clean up their part shavings is so absurd that you will never get talented people to take part.

This of course means the only solution to the talent disparity is an ultra-authoritarian crackdown on any type of private enterprise at all, a truly dystopian outcome that we've seen only under the likes of Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot etc.

I think the part you're overlooking (or consciously not wanting to think about) is enforcement. How do you expect to prevent someone from starting a private business and structuring it in a non co-op manner? Ultimately, this can only be enforced with violence or the threat of violence, right? So now how do you convince people used to freedom to accept widescale authoritarian violence as being "worth it"?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#404

Post by Manuel_D »

dudul wrote: post #384
lazide wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they need physically strong folks able to fight in subzero temperatures while carrying heavy equipment, willing to run into enemy fire to save their friends or family despite extreme danger to themselves, with familiarity and ability to live in harsh outdoor conditions (or even enjoy it), and with a willingness to bayonet, shoot, or explode a stranger to death because of the uniform they are wearing (with a m…

I don't know, I've been told anything a man can do, a woman can do - often better. Also, I dont know if we can use "willing" when talking about people who are forced to do it.

Carrying heavy loads over long distances and tolerating great risks of physical injury are two things where there are indeed significant sex disparities universal across cultures. Exceptionally few women serve in frontline roles, historically it's been a fraction of one percent and only employed because male manpower was exhausted.

That's not to say women joining the military bring large benefits. The significant majority of military personnel, men and women alike, aren't in combat facing roles. The Womens Army Corps in WWII was a big success, and the military wanted to recruit even more women than joined to the point that selective service among women was considered: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_Army_Corps

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#405

Post by lazide »

Manuel_D wrote: post #404
dudul wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, I've been told anything a man can do, a woman can do - often better. Also, I dont know if we can use "willing" when talking about people who are forced to do it.

Carrying heavy loads over long distances and tolerating great risks of physical injury are two things where there are indeed significant sex disparities universal across cultures. Exceptionally few women serve in frontline roles, historically it's been a fraction of one percent and only employed because male manpower was exhausted. That's not to say women joining the military bring large benefits. The significant maj…

Also, willingness (and propensity) to use direct violence, and open aggression.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187704281...

95% of convicted murderers are male, and it’s not the only place with an obvious skew like that.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#406

Post by lazide »

esyir wrote: post #396
lazide wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is society trying to protect and sustain itself. And frankly, what other options are there?

That logic also can go towards the breeding machine side for a population in decline. If men can be drafted to die for the country, can women be drafted to grow it?

Historically? It typically isn’t as formalized in law (though legal recognition of things like ‘it’s impossible to rape your wife’ are quite common in the world, and only stopped being a thing in the US relatively recently).

Expectations of women to have kids to grow populations of their societal group still exist, very directly - it’s a core teaching of the Catholic Church, and Islam. Judaism has it as a core requirement for marriage, and rabbis can force a divorce if one or both of a couple is not having sex (which in pre birth control times, is highly likely to result in kids).

Most religions have some element of ‘a marriage that doesn’t result in kids isn’t valid’ to some degree. It’s a pretty modern thing that a woman not having kids wouldn’t be subjected to severe social pressure, in one or more forms. And that is without taking in some of the odder cases like Henry VIII.

Not unlike a man dodging the draft, frankly, though without the threat of jail time.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#407

Post by lazide »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #398
pixl97 wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You state a case for the tragedy of the commons. If everyone was like you there would be no society and nowhere safe. Effectively you behave like the billionaires of the world today. They have enough money to run away from whatever problems they create and therefore care little about preventing them in the first place. You have no skin in the game.

So I should die because those billionaires are in a dick measuring contest? The war in ukraine is a proxy war between nato and direct for russia. Some random Vlad and Boris have had nothing to do with it, didn't start it but now have to die, so that elenski, ursula, macron and biden on one side and putin, xi, whoever the iranian leader is on the other side measure their dicks. Sorry, but not sorry, fuck them. If they…

And that is when society sends the cops to drag someone away, and the neighbors shrug.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#408

Post by WhiteBlueSkies »

bsuvc wrote: post #363
WhiteBlueSkies wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a middle aged man strangers I meet expect the worst from me, why should I try? Is there something in your appearance which intimidates people?

Would you ask this of a woman? Why do you assume there is something wrong with OP's appearance, and that it is OP's fault if someone doesn't like how he looks? Because he is a man?

You are getting too defensive, I don't mean anything bad by it nor do I suggest that something is wrong with him because of his gender.

The reason I asked is because 99/100 this is fixable. The vast majority of people don't assume only the worst from middle aged men. The reason he mentioned that in particular could also mean that a lot of the anxiety is caused by depression and does not reflect the reality.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#409

Post by Manuel_D »

lazide wrote: post #405
Manuel_D wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carrying heavy loads over long distances and tolerating great risks of physical injury are two things where there are indeed significant sex disparities universal across cultures. Exceptionally few women serve in frontline roles, historically it's been a fraction of one percent and only employed because male manpower was exhausted. That's not to say women joining the military bring large benefits. The significant maj…

Also, willingness (and propensity) to use direct violence, and open aggression. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187704281... 95% of convicted murderers are male, and it’s not the only place with an obvious skew like that.

This is actually a factor I'm less convinced is relevant. A relatively small proportion of casualties are due to small arms fire. Artillery and mortars are the main killers on the battlefield. I doubt willingness to commit criminal homicide is correlated with willingness to lob HE shells to enemy positions kilometers away.

I'm not sure if this inspired your post, but On Killing by Dave Grossman was widely influential but not highly regarded among military people. The combat veterans I've talked to reported little to no hesitation among them or the men they led to use lethal force against the enemy. They reported not only an absence of hesitation, but an eagerness to claim credit for dispatching the enemy (to the point of getting into arguments over who killed which enemy).

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#410

Post by [deleted] »

fxtentacle wrote: post #257
lordfrito wrote: post #215

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

I also noticed this in university and I was curious enough about it to read some history books. I believe that society never cared about young men. They were always left to fend for themselves. In my opinion, the part that's new in modern times is the transparency caused by the internet. Rags to riches, washing dishes to becoming a billionaire, ... these stories have always been extremely unlikely to happen in practi…

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