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I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

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Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#401

Post by fy20 »

lhorie wrote: post #64
pattusk wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not disagree with your take, but I think you may only be speaking for a subset of engineers that are already fairly well compensated. The article likewise seems to discard the importance of money in favor of three other more immaterial factors, but I do not think this is representative of the situation of the global job market right now. I also think such a perspective can not fully explain the difficulties that…

I would posit that the OP underestimates the impact of his second point: remote-first in a covid world opened up a large swath of opportunities to get very large total compensation bumps everywhere. I'm part of a slack group comprised of ex-employees of a company I used to work at and some folks there expressed that it is entirely feasible to land jobs today that pay a full 100-200k over their current or previous com…

In Europe it seems to have changed too. Salaries are still of course low compared to the US, but it seems the salaries are stabilising across the continent.

I've been speaking to recruiters recently and a lot more companies are open to fully remote, even across borders. 10 years ago if you wanted the best salary in Europe you would need to go live in London, now there are plenty of companies hiring remotely across Europe and paying salaries close to what you'd get in London.

I interviewed for a similar senior role in London and Berlin companies this week, and was really surprised the German company was paying more. Even working for local companies in Eastern countries you can often get good enough salaries, so that relocating to traditional tech hubs in Western Europe isn't really worth it, once you take into account cost of living adjustments.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#402

Post by G3rn0ti »

I believe the current job market has a much simpler explanation: short term risk. Due to the ongoing Covid crisis predicting the short term future of the economy is inherently more difficult now. So people stay with their current job as it is a safe but boring haven.

Since you can only hire people willing to quit, you currently can’t find many software engineers that were rare even before Covid. Developer leaving their job by the masses is probably not a real thing at least from my experience. Maybe in some regions of the US. But a shortage of qualified personnel in general probably is.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#403

Post by wiz21c »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #320
anonporridge wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absolute value of your salary doesn't tell you anything about how long it takes to get to retirement (or more accurately, financial independence). That's exclusively a function of your spending and saving rates. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...

Forecasting your spending rate far enough into the future, however, is a very tricky problem if you're trying to retire at 30, especially if you're living through turbulent times. I'd rather work 3 days a week until I'm dead then let my skills start deteriorating now and live the next 60 years in fear that my fixed income won't be able to sustain me.

spot on. Energy prices are going to rise in Europe for the years ahead so will inflation and then your savings will dwindle... In my country inflation is already around 2.5% years on years.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#404

Post by 7952 »

devwastaken wrote: post #259

The cause is companies refuse to fund education and refuse to take on graduates. The system is meant to be that new engineers learn from experienced engineers. This doesn't work when all the company wants is experienced engineers. It naturally leads to applicants abusing the hiring process. This is the plain fact that those well off with their jobs just don't understand. Education is far too expensive, causing anyone…

I work for a consultancy and see the other side of this. We do hire graduates and train them up. And put them to work for clients who can't resource their own work. And then we can't retain them as they get senior roles at other companies.

I think a lot of companies are like an ecological niche that is tuned to a particular kind of candidate. That is actually part of the business model.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#405

Post by jiggunjer »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #198
anonporridge wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it does. If you have a high salary, you are probably living in a HCOL area. If you have a low salary for the same kind of work, then you are probably living in a LCOL area. The savings rates of these different individuals could be the same if the salary difference is proportional to the cost of living difference.

Even if the saving rates are the same, the higher salary in a higher COL wins because you can always move before retirement. However, today’s high inflation rates make all these computations iffy, and if you rely too much on inflation beating stock market returns, you won’t be able to ratchet down on risk as you get closer to your preferred early retirement date (a crash can dump you back in the workforce at a bad ti…

Why do you assume a LCOL area is a downgrade. Those asian countries have still have pretty cheap private healthcare.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#406

Post by gdcbe »

pjmlp wrote: post #311
pattusk wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not disagree with your take, but I think you may only be speaking for a subset of engineers that are already fairly well compensated. The article likewise seems to discard the importance of money in favor of three other more immaterial factors, but I do not think this is representative of the situation of the global job market right now. I also think such a perspective can not fully explain the difficulties that…

> Over in Europe and East Asia, $50 to $60k salaries are the norm Yes, and we have plenty of nice stuff that goes along with it Healthcare, 30 paid holidays, unions, paid overtime, weekends and calls off work come extra (it is 40h week period, want more pay for it), retirement, flex time, ... Like the OP, my expenses are more than covered, getting more isn't worth the hassle to change. Ah, and in some countries havin…

Dunno where you live but in Belgium:

- That salary certainly does seem realistic, even though I'm on the higher end and have a base salary above that;

- I also get the same amount of paid holidays, might be even a couple more;

- we have great hospitality insurance, mutuality (general health care) has to be paid by ourselves however, even though that's cheap;

- they do help me save for pension in the form of a contribution, but it certainly isn't enough to retire of, I see it more like a nice base, but will definitely need money on top of that to actually keep living a good live (at least if I want to stay in Belgium);

- they are flexible in timing for sure, that is something I'm grateful for, as long as I get the work done it's cool;

- they do not expect work in the weekends or after office hours (if you do flexible hours it's of course up to you to do the promised hours at some point or another of course);

However, never ever:

- have I get overtime paid, in any of the companies I worked for in Belgium or the UK;

- have I get the chance to be in some kind of union that's standardised within the companies I work for, haven't even heard ever of a union for software developers;

Further more I'm always been told that despite the fact that they earn their 200k salaries they on top of that get also nice bonuses, options on stocks, 4k pension saving and premium health insurance covered. Or is that too much rainbows and unicorns I heard of?

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#407

Post by intothemild »

reikonomusha wrote: post #100
Apocryphon wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, dissatisfaction about engineering work conditions at AMZN (the notorious PIP culture) is a rising deterrent.

I can't say for certain, but it seems there are lots of squeaky wheels about it and lots of chatter on the internet about them, but AMZN/FB/whoever else aren't actually facing any serious repercussions in terms of being able to hire. (I hope I'm wrong, because I do feel there needs to be a moral reckoning about how we technologists—whatever the specific discipline—are contributing to the world, and whether it's truly…

Anecdotally, I get offers to come interview for roles in different countries for Amazon, Facebook etc, like in sure most of us do.

I politely say no every time not giving any reason other than I don't want to relocate for the job, but the reality is I don't want to either work at that company due to the horrible things they are doing or the horrible reputation of the working environment.

I've asked other engineers if they have similar requests and they do and the reject for the same reasons I do.

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#408

Post by Apocryphon »

7952 wrote: post #404
devwastaken wrote: post #259

The cause is companies refuse to fund education and refuse to take on graduates. The system is meant to be that new engineers learn from experienced engineers. This doesn't work when all the company wants is experienced engineers. It naturally leads to applicants abusing the hiring process. This is the plain fact that those well off with their jobs just don't understand. Education is far too expensive, causing anyone…

I work for a consultancy and see the other side of this. We do hire graduates and train them up. And put them to work for clients who can't resource their own work. And then we can't retain them as they get senior roles at other companies. I think a lot of companies are like an ecological niche that is tuned to a particular kind of candidate. That is actually part of the business model.

Yes, that is a common fear about the downside of training freshers, but that just means you need to try harder to cultivate loyalty. Have you considered investing in above-market pay raises, or alternatively, career development plans for these graduates?

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#409

Post by ttiurani »

I'm sure this article is on point, and the comments here seem to confirm it.

But to me it's just wild that working to bring about a net positive impact to the world isn't mentioned anywhere.

And no: that's not even remotely the same as "cool stuff". Making a rocket taxi for the super rich or tunnel for SOVs is not it. We are on the brink of a global environmental collapse, and a lot of the blame is on the "cool stuff" designed by engineers.

Engineers need to seriously start asking: would the world be better or worse off if this company trying to hire me didn't exist at all?

Re: I think I know why you can't hire engineers right now

#410

Post by jackofalltrades »

hguant wrote: post #8

There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise b…

I understand yours and authors view about money, but for some people 10k per year raise is a really good amount. I was recently on that boat, jumped companies for a close to 10k/year raise because that was 1/3 of what I was making in my previous company. Development jobs aren't at all paid in the same scale in the US vs rest of the world (I'm in Europe).
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