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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#401

Post by tassl »

pvaldes wrote: post #299
Schiphol wrote: post #78

Some commentators are pointing out, not implausibly imho, that the Spanish government is pushing the terrorism accusation against the pro-secession movement as a way to tap into terrorism-related extradition agreements in Europe. Right now there are a few Catalonian political exiles in Belgium and other countries. By the way, Tsunami Democràtic explicitly rejects violent action: https://tsunamidemocratic.github.io/no…

> Tsunami Democràtic explicitly rejects violent action This must be sarcasm. Yeah, they reject violent action at the same time that explicitly provide all the necessary logistic support for violent action, like telling people where is the police in real time, (the same policemen and policewomen that are ambushed later), they also slowly introduce and train naive youngsters in the exciting world of crime and urban war…

> This must be sarcasm. Yeah, they reject violent action at the same time that explicitly provide all the necessary logistic support for violent action, like telling people where is the police in real time, (the same policemen and policewomen that are ambushed later)

THAT might be sarcasm. There is no terrorism or violence implicit in informing people of police location in real time.

> they also slowly introduce and train naive youngsters in the exciting world of crime and urban war

That is false.

> send people to burn the streets, lose their eyes.

That is also false. The second part is quite disturbing, putting the blame where it should not be.

> and (with a little luck) die for the cause and create the long desired martyrs that will come some day

That's disgusting.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#402

Post by ErneX »

ivalm wrote: post #399
Jare wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if Catalonia secedes, the majority (they're not, but for argument's sake) of independentist catalonians will be bullying the minority of non-independentist catalonians, right? It's turtles all the way down.

That's disingenuous, Catalonia is comparable in size to other EU countries, has it's own language, and has long historic objection to being part of Spain. There are not many subgroups that can have similar claim.

I think his argument is pretty valid and on point. Half of Catalonia is basically dragging the other half through a conflict that will end up (if their wishes come to fruition) creating a new state that won't be a member of the EU with all the consequences all that carries, plus all the uncertainties of being a new state. All this while stepping over the current constitution that should protect the half does not want any of this to happen.

The real issue here is not about the identity of the Catalonian people, it's about money. The catalan politicians have instigated nationalism but real issue is money, as in "why we catalans should contribute this much to the other regions of Spain that don't produce as much?"

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#403

Post by Jare »

tassl wrote: post #384
ErneX wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if I don't want to be part of the new Catalonia I can secede my home or join with a few neighbors to be independent from Catalonia? We have a constitution for something it's a not a Chinese vase to glance at it.

The argument of "I can secede from my home" is reductionist, simplistic and overall insulting to any group of people that want independence from the country they depend on or have fought for independence in the past. Most countries today are independent even though it was illegal for them to become independent before they did. Poland or Estonia would still be part of the Russian empire. Austria and Hungary the same c…

> why do people, outside of a territory, control the political status of this territory, going against international law?

Because they are not outside of, they are part of. The rest is a made up fantasy which a bunch of nationalists have used to rile people up, create a "common enemy" and a "them vs us" narrative and gain power for themselves.

This process is absolutely not new and has caused terrible harm throughout history, yet here we are in the 21st Century, seeing Trumps and Brexits and all this bullshit again because we don't fucking learn.

The democratic means for eventual independence are HARD and SLOW because they HAVE to be. You should need a lot more than a loud voice and a molotov cocktail in your hand to push more than half of your presumed co-citizens out of their country against their will.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#404

Post by mirimir »

FrojoS wrote: post #328
mirimir wrote: post #268

It's clear that Microsoft Spain must comply with Spanish government orders. That's just reality. It's also clear that using GitHub for Tsunami Democràtic was a poor choice. Because GitHub is obviously vulnerable to such takedowns. Self hosting on a more or less "bulletproof" server would have made far more sense. If I were doing it, I'd probably use a Tor onion server, with clearnet gateways via disposable VPS, using…

> It's also clear that using GitHub for Tsunami Democràtic was a poor choice. It created publicity for the movement.

Did it really? How?

I mean, how many non geeks have ever heard of GitHub?

However the project got publicity. it could have used a different backend.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#405

Post by msla »

reallydontask wrote: post #164
mindB wrote: post #156

Github will not be shutdown over any action they do or do not take in Spain. The worst that can happen to Github is that they are prevented from doing business in Spain. Given how strongly Spain has come down against freedom of expression on the Catalonia issue, Github is making it very clear by taking this action that freedom of expression is not one of their values. Let me repeat, Spain has come down hard enough ag…

> I highly value freedom of expression, and to me it is especially important to me that a code-hosting and (like it or not) a social media website holds to that value as well. This will definitely affect whether I choose Github or Microsoft in the future. Would you rather choose a company that doesn't comply with local laws? Most governments ( no doubt, yours too), want companies operating under their jurisdiction to…

> Would you rather choose a company that doesn't comply with local laws?

If I made an app which mocked the King of Thailand, and Thailand demanded Github remove the app because it's against Thai law to mock the King of Thailand, what would you want to happen? How about an app which helped Uighurs avoid concentration camps, which China demanded the removal of?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#406

Post by yorwba »

ErneX wrote: post #391
tassl wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument of "I can secede from my home" is reductionist, simplistic and overall insulting to any group of people that want independence from the country they depend on or have fought for independence in the past. Most countries today are independent even though it was illegal for them to become independent before they did. Poland or Estonia would still be part of the Russian empire. Austria and Hungary the same c…

We are talking about a region of Spain that in 1978 voted YES to approve the Spanish constitution. One of the wealthiest regions of an EU member. This is not an oppressed or punished population, the right of self determination does not apply to it when it's an autonomous region that is part of a functioning modern democracy. Even ex-UN chief Ban Ki-moon agreed on this: https://www.thejournal.ie/catalan-independence-b…

What Ban Ki-Moon is quoted as saying in that article just amounts to Catalonia not being on the UN's list of Non-Self-Governing Territories ( https://www.un.org/dppa/decolonization/en/nsgt ) That does not mean the right to self-determination does not apply, just that the UN doesn't literally consider Catalonia to be a Spanish colony.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#407

Post by tassl »

gjulianm wrote: post #189
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty meaningless index when American citizens are free to promote a separatist agenda and the higher ranked Spaniards can't.

Yes we can. There are independentists in parliament. The president of Catalonia is an independentist. Pro-independence demonstrations happen and there are no arrests just by going there (except in riots, but that's because the police force is way too uncontrolled, not because of a general freedom of expression issue). This takedown was to an app that was used to organize a blockage of a major airport. I do not agree…

No. That's a false wrapper around "lack of freedom" trying to make it look like freedom.

The politicians are free to have independentist ideology, and they can put it into their political program. But if they try to execute some pro-independence laws, they are blocked by the overuse of judiciary system in Spain and threatened (or punished).

So yes, the Catalan independentists are there for their ideas. Carme Forcadell is going to spend 10 years in jail while the rest of the table members of the parliament are being accused of disobedience [1]. Other Catalan politicians have seen reduced the accusations because they abandoned politics (Mundo or Santi Vila[2]).

> This takedown was to an app that was used to organize a blockage of a major airport. I do not agree with the takedown, but I do not think it's such a clear cut that it's 'freedom of expression'.

It's the right to protest.

[1] https://www.ccma.cat/324/el-suprem-jutjara-el-govern-puigdem... [2] https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20191014/47901534881/c...

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#408

Post by skissane »

javierga wrote: post #162
AsyncAwait wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? The UK allowed Scotland to decide and it's been peaceful. Also, isn't the relevant section of the Spanish constitution from a fascist era?

Regarding the UK, they might be the only democracy with that prerogative since they don’t have a codified constitution beyond the Magna Carta* * Please don’t quote me on this since it’s been 12 years I did constitutional law

Very many constitutions are actually silent on secession.

I am from Australia. To my best recollection, Australia's constitution never mentions the topic of secession, neither positively or negatively. But, territories of Australia have become independent before. Same is true of United States.

But, some will say a territory is not fully integrated, unlike a state or province, and a state or province would be different.

People say the US constitution doesn't allow secession of a state (as opposed to a territory) without a constitutional amendment. Not directly, but indirectly it does:

1. It is accepted that a territory (as opposed to a state) can secede and become a new country with consent of Congress

2. The US constitution allows a state to surrender some of its territory to the federal government (most obvious case is District of Columbia, but actually a lot of the Midwestern states were formed out of territory originally surrendered by the Eastern states which used to be a lot bigger than they are now)

3. So, a state wishes to secede could surrender all its territory to the federal government, and then Congress allows that territory to become independent.

Objection: States can only surrender some of their territory, not all of it.

Reply: Even if that is true, there is a workaround. Two states are allowed to merge with consent of Congress and their state legislatures. So, seceding state could merge into a neighbouring state, and then the new state would surrender the former territory of the seceding state to the federal government, and then Congress would grant that federal territory independence. (This would of course require the cooperation of a neighbouring state, which might be thought unlikely, but maybe not impossible – the neighbouring state might be pleased to see the seceding state go; the seceding state might sweeten the deal somehow by letting the neighbouring state keep part of its territory.)

Of course, the US Supreme Court might decide this is against the "spirit" of the US constitution. But they aren't compelled to conclude that it is against the letter. Strict constructionism would suggest this would be constitutional.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#409

Post by tassl »

hummel wrote: post #206
xiker wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal referendums, where the result has been a refusal of the Catalan people to leave Spain or Independence That's not true, I think you are confusing Catalonia with Scotland. Preciselly one of the main issues is that a part o Catalonian society (I would say a big one, from both sides, independentist and non independentists) wants a referndum, but Spain refuses t…

Catalonia society already voted many times, and the results were very clear, with no support to independence. You can translate from here all the times they did: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proceso_soberanista_de_Catalu%...

Wait, both referendums (November 9th and October 1st) had +80% independence support. I am not sure why you would use them to make the opposite point?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#410

Post by repolfx »

ErneX wrote: post #309
deltron3030 wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, economically it would be likely a disaster without quick integration into the EU on a higher level. That's another topic, why can't the EU sort them out? Or why can't they rejoin with Spain after trying and failing? I don't think that people would deal with a failure like that, they'd vote to rejoin, and the bond would be stronger afterwards. I think their movement wouldn't have gotten that much steam with a le…

To the EU this is an internal matter, plus, most of the countries of the EU have regions with similar intentions (of secession), it would be like shooting themselves in the foot. Plus new state members of the EU have to be approved by every current member IIRC.

The EU is absolutely happy to interfere with internal matters when it suits them, to a huge degree. Look at how they have been treating Poland and its reforms of its court system. Or look at how the EU is trade sanctioning Switzerland due to a dispute over Swiss internal working regulations.

The Commission is all about "European values" and how they're going to impose penalties when a country is doing something unaligned with their own agenda. But their agenda is to destroy all European nations and merge them all into one super-nation controlled by itself. As part of that they desperately want people to feel patriotism and nationalism towards their new nation called Europe, not existing countries. See how disrespecting the EU flag is now illegal in some countries.

From their perspective Catalonian independence = more countries = harder to unite Europe. Therefore it's fine to crush the resistance. "European values" have mysteriously gone missing.

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