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Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

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Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#201

Post by poooogles »

dannyw wrote: post #188
DangerousPie wrote: post #140

It was a warrant issued by a Spanish court that Github legally had to comply with. You can be angry at the court for issuing such a warrant but you can't be angry at Github for complying. They are not above the law, even if they may disagree with it.

US companies have no legal obligation to comply with a Spanish court order. A MLAT must be arranged and approved before US companies have a legal obligation. GitHub's compliance with the court order was voluntarily and discretionary; just like how if the North Korea courts told me to shut down my site, you have every right to say no.

>US companies have no legal obligation to comply with a Spanish court order.

Sure while they're just a US company. What happens when they open an office in Spain?

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#202

Post by hummel »

tbatchelli wrote: post #178
hummel wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no Catalonia issue and you have plenty of freedom to express yourself wherever you want. We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal referendums, where the result has been a refusal of the Catalan people to leave Spain or Independence. Apart from not having any historical reason for independence, it is very funny how you talk about a lack of freedom of expression in a country that has suffered…

I must have missed something. What are those two legal referendums that you speak of? Also, wouldn't the reasons for independence be up to the citizens? You say there have none...

Check referendum on the dates: 9N-2014, 25N-2015, and many others Wikipedia have an extense article about the times they go to vote freely: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proceso_soberanista_de_Catalu%...

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#203

Post by crawfordcomeaux »

braythwayt wrote: post #182
Miner49er wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can certainly be angry at Github for complying. People break the law all the time in order to do what is moral. Look at Chelsea Manning who's in jail right now for just that.

I'm well to the left of Hacker News, but on this point we disagree. If we get angry with people for not breaking the law, we create an environment where people pretend to be activists to avoid our wrath. That removes the biggest and most important component of activism: People's authentic willingness to sacrifice in exchange for the greatest good. People need to make a free and willing choice to engage in civil disob…

All anger is allowable. Caretaking for an activist's response to hearing anger is codependent.

How is your stance not in line with people insisting on niceness from people belonging to historically oppressed classes?

Shutting down emotions isn't activism. Standing in solidarity and elevating the voice of the oppressed, angry or not, is.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#205

Post by ohduran »

hootbootscoot wrote: post #132
nl wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that this conflict has previously had groups who were terrorist (the bomb planting kind).

it's worth noting that spanish over-reactions may be rooted in memories/fears of ETA, which is an entirely different group from an entirely different region also seeking secession. the concern is the "suppress this at any cost" approach. the heavy sentences can be seen as provocative (13 years for holding an "illegal" election is indefensible. it's pure authoritarian slapdown, reeks of hubris, and spits in the face o…

I've never heard of "Piadina" secessionism, could you please shed any light on that? Can't find anything about it

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#206

Post by hummel »

xiker wrote: post #192
hummel wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no Catalonia issue and you have plenty of freedom to express yourself wherever you want. We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal referendums, where the result has been a refusal of the Catalan people to leave Spain or Independence. Apart from not having any historical reason for independence, it is very funny how you talk about a lack of freedom of expression in a country that has suffered…

> We must remember that Catalonia has already held two legal referendums, where the result has been a refusal of the Catalan people to leave Spain or Independence That's not true, I think you are confusing Catalonia with Scotland. Preciselly one of the main issues is that a part o Catalonian society (I would say a big one, from both sides, independentist and non independentists) wants a referndum, but Spain refuses t…

Catalonia society already voted many times, and the results were very clear, with no support to independence. You can translate from here all the times they did: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proceso_soberanista_de_Catalu%...

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#207

Post by reallydontask »

mschuster91 wrote: post #170
mihemihe wrote: post #165

Don't get the wrong message because they use the term Democratic and play being the victims. Majority of people in Catalonia do not support secession. Those are the real victims, the 50%-ish which are silent, and suffering every day not being able to declare in public their love for their country, Spain and Catalonia, their region. They used this app to organize violent riots, taking advantage of the pacifist demonst…

It's similar to Brexit. No matter what the government does, 50% of people will be utterly pissed off. But the biggest problem is that, unlike the UK where Scotland was allowed to hold a proper referendum in 2014, the Spanish government is not only not allowing holding a real referendum that would settle the issue for the next few years, but also prosecuting those responsible for the 2017 referendum with extremely har…

Spain, unlike the UK, has a written constitution, in which the indivisibility of the state is stated.

This means that the first step for any region to legally have any chance of leaving Spain is to change the constitution, which needs bigger than simple majorities (3/5 or 2/3 depending on the procedure), so it's unlikely that this will happen any time soon.

The people that organised the referendum knew this and still went ahead and then things took a turn for the worse.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#208

Post by jaggirs »

segmondy wrote: post #196

You know what I'll like to see, maybe I'll build it when I get the bandwidth. A system that let's you mass publish across many places at once. You can publish to github, bitbucket, gitlabs, netlify, neocities, heroku, reddit, HN, youtube, blogger, facebook etc, like 100 different places. Then any govt that wants to orders a take down, has to reach out to all those places, but the main thing of course is that most of…

Also applies to content uploads from creators. If instead of only uploading to youtube they automatically did so for a variety of platforms, youtube's monopolistic position would be reduced somewhat. Also reduces the likelihood of your content being stolen and profited from on another platform.

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#209

Post by mihemihe »

mschuster91 wrote: post #170
mihemihe wrote: post #165

Don't get the wrong message because they use the term Democratic and play being the victims. Majority of people in Catalonia do not support secession. Those are the real victims, the 50%-ish which are silent, and suffering every day not being able to declare in public their love for their country, Spain and Catalonia, their region. They used this app to organize violent riots, taking advantage of the pacifist demonst…

It's similar to Brexit. No matter what the government does, 50% of people will be utterly pissed off. But the biggest problem is that, unlike the UK where Scotland was allowed to hold a proper referendum in 2014, the Spanish government is not only not allowing holding a real referendum that would settle the issue for the next few years, but also prosecuting those responsible for the 2017 referendum with extremely har…

The issue is the ramifications which come with a referendum.

Let's imagine secession wins with a 52%, and everybody decide to divide Spain. This means 48% of the people are going to be taken their Spanish passports and citizenship off, and they become just Catalans. This opens a can of worms in terms of stability of the region, which may very easily end up in another civil war, like the one that happened few decades ago.

Another solution would be to split Catalonia in two regions. This definitely will end up badly, taking in consideration how resentful Spaniards have been through their history.

I do not know if this quote is originally from Bismarck as some people claim, but he rightly said:

"I am firmly convinced that Spain is the strongest country of the world. Century after century trying to destroy herself and still no success’"

Re: Spanish government orders GitHub to take down Tsunami Democràtic repository

#210

Post by kazagistar »

mihemihe wrote: post #194
kuroikyu wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They used this app to organize violent riots, taking advantage of the pacifist demonstrations organized by the pro-secession political parties. They also used this app to organize non-violent protests, but why say that when you can tell half the truth to tell your story? I'm sure Whatsapp, Telegram, Messenger good ol' SMS were used to organize violent riots, but we won't close those right? I'm sorry but your argume…

Hong Kong and Catalonia are completely different stories, you know that, but still we like to draw the attention to Hong Kong and find similarities where there are none. They closed other sources such as websites, and VPS hosting mirrors. You cannot simply "close" WhatsApp or Telegram or SMS, that is not how it works, unless you just cut the service for everybody, or go down the rabbit hole of chasing hundreds if ad-…

Wouldn't doing right be having a proper referendum, ideally with international oversight, to get the real answer to the question? Everyone likes to think they are on the side of a majority, but its talking out of your ass til you actually do the democracy.
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