Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#401

Post by Helmet » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 2:40 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #338

dalbasal wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't live in the US, but I'm skeptical. There are a lot of places where civilian gun ownership causes problems, gun crime, etc. Some of the places where it does not cause big problems (eg Switzerland) have liberal gun laws and high ownership rates. There are examples where widespread gun ownership/availability causes exactly the kinds of is "problems" that (according to some) the American founders intended it to c…

> the American founders intended it to cause. Basically, armed revolutions. So ... After all the history that passed since then, after all the civil wars and armed revolutions do we still believe they are good idea? I guess US military thinks so after supporting so many in the middle east. Europe I think has different take on the subject.

Yes, many of us do. The vast majority of US gun-owners are not criminals, and the social problems that gun ownership seems to correlate with can be argued, debated, and squared away with "other" strong correlations, so the debate is certainly not settled.

Both the American Revolutionary and Civil War have only hardened my position on the importance of gun ownership.

There is a fundamental ideological divide between us that drives these positions. You can call me a cook, crank, nutter, clinger, whatever you want, but the fact is this:

I simply don't trust the government and I believe in the right to arm and protect myself at any and all costs.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#402

Post by yAnonymous » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 2:43 PM UTC

galobtter wrote: post #327

yAnonymous wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland is proof that gun ownership and homicides are not necessarily related. Education and intelligence are probably the main factors here. So if there is a measurable relation between the two, it says more about the sad state of the society where the tests were conducted.

It still causes suicides - https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/switzerland-s-troubling-record-...

Causes? The numbers don't show that at all and you don't seem to be very good at interpreting them. If anything, it might just be a better (easier) way to go.

Switzerland also allow assisted suicide. They have a different attitude in that regard. Why make it difficult for someone who wants to go?

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#403

Post by Helmet » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 2:47 PM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #359

scotty79 wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the American founders intended it to cause. Basically, armed revolutions. So ... After all the history that passed since then, after all the civil wars and armed revolutions do we still believe they are good idea? I guess US military thinks so after supporting so many in the middle east. Europe I think has different take on the subject.

That is certainly debatable. Americans seem used to the idea, but to the uninitiated the idea of building armed insurrection into the governing system seems pretty mad.

How is it mad? Government's are capable committing atrocities of unprecedented scale against their own citizenry. I wonder if the Russian Kulaks could have organized an armed resistance, or perhaps the Chinese peasants during Maosism.

Also, I recommend to you the fascinating history of the African-American tradition of arms in the US. Black's used firearms to defend their families and communities against KKK and white mobs.

"A good revolver is the best response to the slave catcher" - Fredrick Douglas

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#404

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 2:47 PM UTC

kbutler wrote: post #394

sandworm101 wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the sky has fallen. For these people the big evil is the thing they are fighting against. They dont want gay marriage not because of its impacts but because they dont want gay marriage. Full stop. They dont want to decriminalize drugs because they dont want them decriminalized. When an issue becomes so internalized, so tied to ones identity, it is impossible to change. We need to work on keeping people from ident…

This is a mischaracterization of people who disagree with you and inhibits finding common ground and working together. Opponents of gay marriage want strong families with good environments to raise children. Opponents of drug legalization want to prevent the individual and societal harm caused by drug use. Viewing opponents with that perspective helps find more effective ways of working together. It's also interestin…

[deleted]

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#405

Post by dalbasal » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 2:48 PM UTC

Helmet wrote: post #401

scotty79 wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the American founders intended it to cause. Basically, armed revolutions. So ... After all the history that passed since then, after all the civil wars and armed revolutions do we still believe they are good idea? I guess US military thinks so after supporting so many in the middle east. Europe I think has different take on the subject.

Yes, many of us do. The vast majority of US gun-owners are not criminals, and the social problems that gun ownership seems to correlate with can be argued, debated, and squared away with "other" strong correlations, so the debate is certainly not settled. Both the American Revolutionary and Civil War have only hardened my position on the importance of gun ownership. There is a fundamental ideological divide between u…

The civil war?

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#406

Post by exelius » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 2:50 PM UTC

belorn wrote: post #380

jonathanstrange wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 2 cent (classical armchair analysis): It seems to me that some of these discussions are mostly dominated by irrationality. This is particularly recognizable in the US, but also occurs in Europe to a degree that varies from topic to topic and country to country. I believe there are two major factors at play. First, certain topics concern taboos that are still strong even in secularized societies. To these belong an…

> amok runs with guns This is the problem when discussing political issues like gun control. Gun related crimes has shown correlation with gun ownership laws. Gun accidents is naturally correlated to gun ownership. Mass public shootings however do not when adjusted for the population, but it draws so much political attention so it always get put into the discussion regardless if it match the data. Gun accidents is al…

The big tragedy with the widespread availability of firearms is suicide. Guns are a quick and easy way to end it all, where if you had to search out a tall building for 5 minutes the suicidal urge would subside.

Anyone who has dealt with depression can tell you how this works. The suicidal urge doesn't last very long, but guns are waaaaaaay too convenient. Guns are far from the only way to kill yourself, but their widespread availability and the immediacy of the action are unique among suicide methods.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#407

Post by Tyrek » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 2:51 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #391

scotty79 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Switzerland. From wiki about gun laws there: In 2016, the defence ministry estimated that 2 million privately owned guns are in circulation, which given a population of 8.3 million corresponds to a gun ownership rate of around 24 guns per 100 residents. This is roughly a quarter of the rate in the United States, and lower than that in the neighbouring countries of Germany, and Austria, but about the double of It…

Switzerland has a gun homicide rate of 0.50 per 100k population. The US rate is approximately 3.53 per 100k population.[0] So this begs the question, if the per capita gun ownership in Switzerland is 1/4th what it is in the US, why is gun homicide 1/7th? Are Americans just more homicidal than the Swiss? Guns are certainly an issue but not the issue. If you cut American gun ownership by 75% you'd still have more per c…

I don't know if it's fair to say that it's not the issue. Unless we have a crystal ball that will reveal the exact breakdown of causal factors, it certainly seems reasonable to address the big ticket items that we are aware of, and are reasonably sure will have a positive impact on the homicide rate. Let's not let perfect be the enemy of good when it comes to incremental social improvement.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#408

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 2:53 PM UTC

mantas wrote: post #278

Retric wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technocracy implies the people in power are experts. That has never and likely will never happen. People gain power by being good at politics and or inheriting it. Neither of those measures technical skill. At most you can look at countries who listen to relevant experts, which very much includes the United States. Though again on a sliding scale and always secondary to maintaining power for the in groups. Really if…

Well known technocrats frequently raise because of being good on politics/charisma/etc, rather than their technical skill which sometime can be average at best. On top of that, pure and legitimate technocrats frequently are so deep in their fields they don't notice side effects to other fields. Politics are about making the whole system work, not about advancing one single field. It's easy to optimise a society for a…

[deleted]

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#409

Post by vertex-four » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 2:54 PM UTC

owebmaster wrote: post #387

ambicapter wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes it fake?

As a social dynamics that evolved for safer copulation and procreation, what in 2 people bonding together looks like a marriage? You can pretend that they are just like every other couple (fake until 'we' make it?), but this is exactly what I call fake.

I know a large amount of married straight couples who don't have children for whatever reason - are they in a fake marriage too? Is there as much moral outcry about this, should there be law to enforce that married couples have children?

I also know married straight couples who've adopted children rather than having their own - are those fake families? Would a gay couple who adopted a child be creating a fake family?

The only thing consistently binding marriages across cultures in the US and my own country, IME, is that two people have agreed to love and care for each other "until death do us part".

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#410

Post by ht85 » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 2:58 PM UTC

eberkund wrote: post #34

thrden wrote: post #23

One thing that people aren't considering is that we have legalization experiments within the United States, and we have seen an uptick in marijuana usage[1]. This uptick has been benign because its been limited to Marijuana. I think that given our culture (one that I believe is potentially universal, but I can not speak to universality) has a tendency toward over consumption, its not clear to me that legalization of…

I haven't heard it argued that legalizing drugs would decrease usage. Just that it would lead to safer usage, reduce crime, destigmatize addiction and allow for better treatment of addicts.

You're correct that addicts won't stop using because of decriminalization, but it does open new ways of helping those people.

Instead of forcing them to hide, prosecuting, incarcerating and labeling them as undesirable members of society, you can create infrastructure and programs that could help many of them deal with their issues over time.

Sometimes the hardest part of exiting addiction is that the only people who understand or tolerate you are other addicts, creating a very hard to escape circle.