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Firefox OS devices officially released

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Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And how exactly is it "different"? Robert Nyman of Mozilla pointed me at this: https://blog.mozilla.org/ligong/2013/06/03/foxconn-joins-the... "Foxconn stated that they intend to have FFOS running on all categories of the “8 screen” devices, from smartphone to tablets to laptops to TVs and outdoor signage." Name me another mobile OS that will be running on laptops or outdoor signage. :) This, I think, is the bigger…

Android.

Does not Windows already do that too?

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#42
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither does iOS, for that matter.

It doesn't? All recent MacBooks I have seen insist rather hard to be paired with an account and a credit card number. I have never done the initial setup of an iOS device, but I would have assumed that it was the same or worse.

No, it definitely doesn't.

iPhone 5 + iOS 6: doesn't know a thing about my credit card, and never will.

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#43
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither does iOS, for that matter.

It doesn't? All recent MacBooks I have seen insist rather hard to be paired with an account and a credit card number. I have never done the initial setup of an iOS device, but I would have assumed that it was the same or worse.

I have a 2011 MacBook and my wife has two iPhones, none of which are paired with a credit card.

It's been a while since I set it up, but if I recall correctly you can create your "Apple ID" online and select 'None' for the credit card, then you sign in on your device with that account.

When you're creating an account on the device, I think it may force you pair a credit card though.

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#44
post #15

This is my lucky day to be in Spain! Have been following the project from the B2G[0] days and will order a phone ASAP. If you are in Spain, you can order the phone from Telefonica[1] and if you are like me and want to talk with other Firefox OS nerds, there is a Google Plus community for that[2] Also, don't forget that if you want to develop for Firefox OS but don't yet have a device for it, you can run the superfast…

This is currently the most open mobile OS. Count me in!

Opennes's nice but is it single-person hackable or huge monolithic blob that nobody except the most skilled teams would dare to bite?

My problem with Android is that I miserably failed to hack it alone (I wanted to mess with app permission system and make it work my way). The Behemoth seem to have quite a steep learning curve, so I quickly lost my way in its innards.

However, I was able hack Maemo (except for proprietary parts) on N900 somehow. Stack was loosely coupled, everything's deb-packaged separately, many components are not in-home inventions but are well-known software (Debian base, X11, OpenSSL, DBus, etc.). Sad thing Maemo's practically dead.

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#45
I think we are "almost there" in terms of freedom of choice and usage of our mobile device. We are still dependent on the carrier - e.g. Telefonica - to have our phone running our OS of choice. Of course, we have unlocked phones, but that's another thing, another price too.

I wish my experience with mobile phones were the same as with laptops: every two years or so I step into a shop and buy a low-end machine on sale, go home and install the latest Ubuntu LTS version.

When I first read about Firefox OS I thought I would have the experience as described above. I would buy ANY phone, donwload the Firefox OS, install it and enjoy mobile life from a different perspective. As I said, I think we are "almost there". Maybe that's where Ubuntu Mobile is aiming to.

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#46
post #12

Huge kudos to Mozilla for branching out and trying something different. I hope it works out for them: we could really do with an open competitor to the Google/Apple duopoly.

Firefox OS will need to successfully compete against BlackBerry OS, Windows Mobile, bada and the other quite obscure mobile OSes long before it'll have a chance to even begin competing against Android or iOS. Many of these alternative systems have actually shipped on numerous devices, and have actual users. And how exactly is it "different"? Firefox OS is really just a limited subset of what we already have available…

Hey PommeDeTerre,

Allow me to give a different perspective here. While in many other mobile operating systems you can build apps with HTML (saying HTML from now on but meaning HTML/CSS/JS, ok?), the API the vendors make available don't cover the same features as what is native on that platform. We can say that Firefox OS is important because of the following things:

MAKING THE WEB A FIRST CLASS CITIZEN

Makes the web a first class citizen. Its not like "you can build apps with web technology", its more like you don't need native because all you need is available thru the web apis. While in other platforms, there is a barrier on what can be accomplished with HTML alone, on Firefox OS HTML is the way. Let me give you a silly but practical example:

Suppose you have an intranet on your small company built by IT in PHP or something. This intranet has an address book for everyone in the company. Using the Web API, you can detect the contacts API and offer the user the ability to import contacts from the web directly to the phones contact book. This is done in a secure way, with permissions granted by the user, its not like "hey, open this page and flood the contact database". The security model is good. This is a silly example but it is useful for many people. Its the tiny APIs that make your life easier and your experience better.

GIVING YOU THE FREEDOM OF THE WEB

In platforms such as iOS, your only venue to distribute your apps is the iTunes App Store. All money passes thru Apple. On Android, you can have third party stores but the default setting is to allow apps from Google Play only (unless you're a kindle or nook). Most of the other platforms are about controlling the ecosystem to make money for the vendor.

On Firefox OS you have the Firefox Marketplace that is a mixture of Chrome Webstore and Google Play. It allows distribution of apps for desktop, android and firefox os (all using gecko runtime). You are not tied to Firefox Marketplace though. You have an install API that you can use on your app or your site to install apps on the users phone (Again, it asks permissions, security is good). You can even fork the Firefox Marketplace code and build your own.

Talking about payment, you have the usual credit card charging on the marketplace but you also have carrier billing (if the carrier implement it) allowing users to buy apps and have it charged to their prepaid cards or monthly bill. Remember that in many markets, people don't have credit cards. If you're not happy with both solutions you can roll your own payment solution using the payments API and receipt protocol. You are free to distribute and monetize your app as you see fit, just like on the web.

ITS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR YOUR IPHONE OR GALAXY S3

If you have an Android device, you can just install Firefox Mobile and be happy since we'll eventually have feature parity between Firefox Mobile and Firefox OS. These Firefox OS phones are being created for emergent markets. People from U.S. and richer parts of Europe don't really realize how things are in south america and asia. An Samsung Galaxy S3 will cost USD 1000 in Rio right now while the minimum wage is about USD 350. Buying such expensive phones require a plan and saving for a long time. 78% of the Brazilian market is on feature phones.

By offering an inexpensive handset that has a full smartphone experience with a price that is affordable is key in these markets. It is about bringing the next million people online on the mobile web for the first time. Firefox OS is here to be the first smartphone for people that are still on Symbian or S40. In some markets you can buy a cheap android with decent performance, in others you can't.

Firefox OS offers the best cost-benefit ratio once you think about how much performance you have against your hardware specs. If you pick the same low-end hardware with Android or Firefox OS, Android will have a worse experience, not because Android is broken in any way, Android is great but because there are more things going on on Android than on Firefox OS. Firefox OS is just a tiny hal, gecko and gaia, while Android has a VM and lots of other things going on.

As I said before, this is not about fighting Android, its about offering a new choice for those that can't afford a good Android or iPhone. Here in Brazil, we have some very cheap Android devices since we have Samsung, LG and others building them locally. Most of these devices are pretty crap to use. The same hardware with Firefox OS would be a much better experience.

ITS ABOUT THE WEB API

The objective here is not to sell phones or be dominant. Firefox OS is about preventing vendor lock-in. Right now, each platform is an island. iOS has Objective-C/Cocoa Touch, Android has Java, Windows Phone has something that I can't recall. If you want to build cross platform apps, you're in for a world of hurt. You can use phonegap but this is not something offered by the platform vendor, this something that was built to bridge the web and native.

The Web API is the next step in this direction. Each of the APIs in the collection known as Web API is being standardized with the W3C and other interested parties. The idea is that other vendors adopt these APIs and that open web apps work anywhere equally. Firefox OS is not about an exclusive experience, it is about openness and freedom. Even if Firefox OS fail but the Web API succeeds, it will be a huge victory for the open web.

ITS ALSO ABOUT BEING CREATIVE

Right now there is a steep learning curve regarding developing native apps for most platforms. Objective-C and Java are easy languages for CS people but for the layman they are pretty hard. It requires a lot of effort to be good with them.

Why is the web a success? If the web required such effort, we'd still be using gopher and news. One of the reasons the web was a success was that it required less effort to produce something useful. I am not saying good, I am saying useful. Anyone could host a server, anyone with a text editor could build pages. Firefox OS is about bringing this to mobile. It requires less effort and your open web apps can be deployed on other platforms such as iOS and Android (with phonegap or other runtimes). Yes, these days it requires a lot of effort to build good web apps but not much to build useful ones. Firefox OS has the potential and openness to bring all web developers to mobile with ease. Open Web Apps are king of local content. Niche apps that are only useful for those in a neighborhood or profession are a web editor away from being born and available. The web is king for local content and Firefox OS is nothing but an mobile extension of the web.

WHY I THINK FIREFOX OS WILL SUCCEED?

As I said above, Firefox OS is nothing but the web and the web can't fail because it already succeeded. Right now the only technology that bridges smart tvs, video games, smartphones, desktop and laptop computers together is HTML/CSS/JS.

Remember how much progress we had in JS runtimes the last year, try to imagine where we're going to be next year. Javascript is already reaching 1.5x native speed in some cases, two years from now, this won't matter because it will as fast as it needs to be. One could argue that for most mobile app needs, it is already fast enough.

Apps built for Firefox OS can be deployed as web pages and made available on a server. They can be sold on Chrome webstore and Firefox Marketplace. They can be wrapped with phonegap and deployed to iOS, Android, Windows Phone, BB10, Bada, Tizen and webOS. They can be wrapped in other runtimes and be used on Smart TVs and video games. The web is the king of cross platform, of vendor neutrality and without lock-ins.

I think that the future belong to HTML based solutions and all platforms that embrace it.

PS: I am a Mozilla Rep and a Firefox OS Launch Team member in Brazil.

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#47
post #17

I'm curious - does it automatically get the latest version of FF when it's released for desktop/Android? And does it support all of the functionality that comes with it? i.e. will it now have the asm.js optimisations and similar?

I'm not sure about asm.js/OdinMonkey. I believe that FirefoxOS 1.0 does not have it, but that FirefoxOS 1.1 (which should be available as a free over-the-air update) has it. More generally, FirefoxOS does not automatically get the latest version of Gecko, because the process for mobile operating systems is more complex. The operating system must first pass certification by (if I recall) both the constructors and the…

Can you give an idea of how you expect that to work compared with Android? Given that Firefox OS devices seem to be cheap and low end, how likely are constructors and operators to perform a "long and costly" process to upgrade them regularly? Cheap and low end Android devices have terrible support from both, even for upgrades without new hardware requirements, is there any indication that they will better support similar Firefox OS devices?

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#48
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox OS will need to successfully compete against BlackBerry OS, Windows Mobile, bada and the other quite obscure mobile OSes long before it'll have a chance to even begin competing against Android or iOS. Many of these alternative systems have actually shipped on numerous devices, and have actual users. And how exactly is it "different"? Firefox OS is really just a limited subset of what we already have available…

> We can already quite successfully run HTML5/CSS/JavaScript-based apps on Android, iOS, and BlackBerry OS for instance. Right, but in Firefox you also have "native" HTML5 apps, which give access to more hardware functionality than a regular web app. > And this is ignoring Firefox OS's inflexibility when it comes to using languages other than JavaScript I don't see how Firefox OS is less flexible than other systems.…

>Right, but in Firefox you also have "native" HTML5 apps, which give access to more hardware functionality than a regular web app.

Which negates the sole benefit of a web app in the first place since those APIs are not standard and not available on other platforms, so those apps are not portable. Maybe the APIs will become standard and implemented on Android and iOS etc, but at that point you can write those kinds of apps for Android or iOS too, so again Firefox OS offers no benefit.

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#49
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, hello PommeDeTerre. Haven't we had roughly the same conversation last week on another thread? > Firefox OS will need to successfully compete against BlackBerry OS, Windows Mobile, [...] Yes, a new product needs to compete with existing products. That goes without saying. > And how exactly is it "different"? Frankly? Try it, you'll see. For me, it's different insofar as I can write a small game and self-publish it…

> Caveat: I'm a Mozillian. Oh. If your view resembles that of the most of mozillians then I think Firfox OS is already doomed. What you wrote might appeal to some developers, but it means little to users. And I am not sure how many developers are interested in platform in which users are not interested. Looks like when Blake Ross left Mozilla so did understanding the user.

> then I think Firfox OS is already doomed.

Perhaps it is. We'll see how it will play out. It's hard to say at this point.

Going for Android 1.0 wasn't that impressive when it shipped either. But look where it is now.

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is currently the most open mobile OS. Count me in!

Opennes's nice but is it single-person hackable or huge monolithic blob that nobody except the most skilled teams would dare to bite? My problem with Android is that I miserably failed to hack it alone (I wanted to mess with app permission system and make it work my way). The Behemoth seem to have quite a steep learning curve, so I quickly lost my way in its innards. However, I was able hack Maemo (except for proprie…

Well, we have newcomers all the time on both Gecko and Gaia, and they all manage to contribute efficiently.

Here's a short overview of how to get started: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/introduction Not necessarily trivial, but just about everybody manages to get started in a few days at worst.

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