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Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

nytimes.com

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Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#41

Post by danaris »

IcyWindows wrote: post #23
nashadelic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s depressing how the tech ecosystem works as a self-reinforcing cartel against workers for statusquo preservation. Yes, it’s rational from the tech industry as a whole’s POV, there’s little to no chance a single individual can really stand against such machinery

Each side has incredible freedom. There are downsides to them. Employees can take up a huge amount of resources and then leave before costs are recovered.

Yes, indeed: the rich and poor alike have freedom from being allowed to sleep under bridges.

Come on; there are such obvious imbalances of power here that "each side has incredible freedom" is blatantly misleading.

On the one hand, you have each individual software engineer (because heaven forbid we should ever join unions! Those are for people who aren't A+ 10x alpha coders and negotiators, amirite?), every one of whom needs a salary so they can afford food, clothing, shelter, etc.

On the other hand, you have a group of the most wealthy and powerful countries the world has ever seen, who openly work together, have the ear of the flagrantly-corrupt president, and could coast on their cash reserves for, in some cases, many years even if every single customer decided to boycott them all at once.

And you think that "each side has incredible freedom" is a meaningful statement here...?

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#42

Post by danaris »

nemomarx wrote: post #4

In these cases where they have to rehire someone, does the employee usually stay after? Wouldn't the workplace be kinda hostile now with the manager who fired you?

Even if that's the case, this ensures that she has a stable paycheck while she searches for another job.

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#43

Post by camgunz »

IcyWindows wrote: post #39
Grombobulous wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am doing a double take reading your comment and the parent comment of yours. They’re just so wildly corporate-biased. I’m really not sure how we can conclude that the freedom is symmetrical. The fact that this story made national news says everything about how rare it is for an employer to win a case like this. In most cases you just get fired for any reason with no notice or off-ramp. The employer is just always c…

My comments are not "corporate-biased", they are business owner biased, which includes small businesses. Employment is an free arrangement between two entities, not a modern day serfdom where the employers are now responsible for their serfs housing, food, etc.

The power balance is tilted heavily towards employers though, no? If I quit you still have things like income and health care. If you fire me, not so much.

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#44

Post by Shorn »

IcyWindows wrote: post #39
Grombobulous wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am doing a double take reading your comment and the parent comment of yours. They’re just so wildly corporate-biased. I’m really not sure how we can conclude that the freedom is symmetrical. The fact that this story made national news says everything about how rare it is for an employer to win a case like this. In most cases you just get fired for any reason with no notice or off-ramp. The employer is just always c…

My comments are not "corporate-biased", they are business owner biased, which includes small businesses. Employment is an free arrangement between two entities, not a modern day serfdom where the employers are now responsible for their serfs housing, food, etc.

Holy shit, did you just try to spin serfdom??

Yeah, no corporate bias here whatsoever

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#45

Post by thunky »

ytpete wrote: post #2

A US administrative labor law judge judge found that software maker Atlassian had illegally fired an engineer after she pushed back against manager layoffs and other policy changes. > The ruling found that the engineer, Denise Unterwurzacher, had a federally backed right to make such comments because she made them as part of a collective effort to aid or protect co-workers. > The judge ordered the company to reinstat…

Atlassian could have fired her for no reason and had no problem.

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#46

Post by rileymat2 »

thunky wrote: post #45
ytpete wrote: post #2

A US administrative labor law judge judge found that software maker Atlassian had illegally fired an engineer after she pushed back against manager layoffs and other policy changes. > The ruling found that the engineer, Denise Unterwurzacher, had a federally backed right to make such comments because she made them as part of a collective effort to aid or protect co-workers. > The judge ordered the company to reinstat…

Atlassian could have fired her for no reason and had no problem.

Yes, if they fired her for no reason…

No reason stated is trickier if the employee shows a timeline/cause and effect then gets discovery in court. Also, firing for no reason would not be very believable in itself compared to a timeline.

This is why employers even get extra careful with documentation in some situations where they have cause but also potential legal issues.

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#47

Post by em-bee »

antonvs wrote: post #12
ytpete wrote: post #2

A US administrative labor law judge judge found that software maker Atlassian had illegally fired an engineer after she pushed back against manager layoffs and other policy changes. > The ruling found that the engineer, Denise Unterwurzacher, had a federally backed right to make such comments because she made them as part of a collective effort to aid or protect co-workers. > The judge ordered the company to reinstat…

> Atlassian said it planned to appeal the ruling To me this reads as: Atlassian says it doesn’t want customers. Happy to oblige. Our $100 million startup moved off Atlassian recently, and we couldn’t be happier.

what/where did you move to?

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#48

Post by therobots927 »

I got downvoted for posing the possibility that the atlassian ceo actually is a ‘rich jerk’ and that his retaliation towards this employee was evidence of the statement itself.

I guess I’ve been vindicated. I’ll be accepting apologies.

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#49

Post by beAbU »

nemomarx wrote: post #4

In these cases where they have to rehire someone, does the employee usually stay after? Wouldn't the workplace be kinda hostile now with the manager who fired you?

In this particular case I'd argue that the workplace is indeed going to be very hostile, and appropriate reparations here would not be to rehire, but a fat compensation package for unfair dismissal.

Many worker relations ombuds around the world has procedures for exactly this scenario.

Hell, I reckon the majority of 'illegal' firings does not result in rehiring the injured party.

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#50

Post by apparent »

matchbok3 wrote: post #14

[flagged]

> The company terminated her in June 2023 after two more incidents, including a sarcastic allusion to an Atlassian founder’s partial ownership of the Utah Jazz basketball team. “Just dialling in from my NBA team’s headquarters to yell at the people whose careers I’ve just pummelled,” she wrote.

Yeah this comment seems rude and without much substantive value. I would not want someone with this attitude and sense of decorum to work at my company, regardless of whether I believed in the causes that they advocated for. It's just a cheap shot, and not especially funny or insightful.

The company claims they had rules against this type of comment, and that's why she was fired:

> Atlassian argued that it had fired Ms. Unterwurzacher for violating company rules that require employees to behave civilly and avoid ad hominem attacks against one another.

Seems like a case like this could be overturned on appeal, if what they say is true. Also depends on what else she said, which the article doesn't mention.

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