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Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

nytimes.com

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Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#31

Post by tiew9Vii »

matchbok3 wrote: post #27
calderarrow wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Court rules employee has the right to make the comments she made Random HN comment: > her comments were unprofessional and she has no right to distract the company. Same User: > y Downvote :(

If an employee of yours spent hours every day attacking you.... would you keep them employed? Why not?

From the article I read it didn't say employee was attacking them hours every day. From the articles the employee posted a message on an internal slack "Outrage Notification" channel which looks to be an internal venting channel containing similar content.

Atlassian has values "Open company, no bullshit" which they selectively use. "Open company, no bullshit" until it isn't. Example, this case, upsetting Mikes ego.

I was on a team at Atlassian that got constructively dissambled after not being happy with some changes for the worse. Worst retro I've ever been in, all developers heads on desks, manager: "suggest how we fix this issue", developers silent as every answer from the developer got the reply from manager on the lines of "no, you know we can't do that anymore". Then the digging through historic slack messages and social media posts started followed by departures...

That was a very long time ago now, seems not much has changed.

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#32

Post by antonvs »

fhdkweig wrote: post #8
exabrial wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Atlassian said it planned to appeal the ruling, however. I think it'd be cheaper to keep her at this point. I'd tell your lawyer's egos to take a chill pill.

I am not a lawyer, but if they don't appeal and win, it will set a precedent that they'd (and other companies) have to pay out on any other employees fired for this reason. That will cost them more in the long run.

> That will cost them more in the long run.

Only if customers don’t care about your labor practices. For me this story screams “Don’t Use or Recommend Atlassian - in fact, strongly advise against it.”

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#33

Post by antonvs »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #30
matchbok3 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If an employee of yours spent hours every day attacking you.... would you keep them employed? Why not?

Come on. Her comment was "What’s up Outragers, just dialing in from my NBA team’s headquarters to yell at the people whose careers I’ve just pummeled" In a water cooler channel, while the CEO was calling in from his NBA team headquarters to announce layoffs... It's mildly dramatized, bordering on milquetoast satire of exactly what he was doing.

She committed the ultimate sin: pointing out what a CEO was actually doing.

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#35

Post by Freedom2 »

IcyWindows wrote: post #23
nashadelic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s depressing how the tech ecosystem works as a self-reinforcing cartel against workers for statusquo preservation. Yes, it’s rational from the tech industry as a whole’s POV, there’s little to no chance a single individual can really stand against such machinery

Each side has incredible freedom. There are downsides to them. Employees can take up a huge amount of resources and then leave before costs are recovered.

I think this is a salient point people are missing. This incredible freedom is equal on both sides, just as how companies are able to spread that risk around with multiple employees, it is common these days to have multiple jobs just in case of a layoff or other notable event where your job is lost.

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#36

Post by andrekandre »

newsomix9xl wrote: post #34

Now that we have fancy AI can't someone make a FOSS jira clone?

thats something i've wondered too, but as a long time jira user i'd rather foss contribute to something better designed (both code and ux-wise) than rehash the mess of ux anti-patterns of jira... just my 2c

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#37

Post by [deleted] »

Freedom2 wrote: post #35
IcyWindows wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each side has incredible freedom. There are downsides to them. Employees can take up a huge amount of resources and then leave before costs are recovered.

I think this is a salient point people are missing. This incredible freedom is equal on both sides, just as how companies are able to spread that risk around with multiple employees, it is common these days to have multiple jobs just in case of a layoff or other notable event where your job is lost.

[deleted]

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#38

Post by Grombobulous »

Freedom2 wrote: post #35
IcyWindows wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each side has incredible freedom. There are downsides to them. Employees can take up a huge amount of resources and then leave before costs are recovered.

I think this is a salient point people are missing. This incredible freedom is equal on both sides, just as how companies are able to spread that risk around with multiple employees, it is common these days to have multiple jobs just in case of a layoff or other notable event where your job is lost.

I am doing a double take reading your comment and the parent comment of yours. They’re just so wildly corporate-biased.

I’m really not sure how we can conclude that the freedom is symmetrical.

The fact that this story made national news says everything about how rare it is for an employer to win a case like this. In most cases you just get fired for any reason with no notice or off-ramp. The employer is just always correct by default and you can easily be denied unemployment insurance because the company cooked up some official looking documents showing that you were fired with cause.

A corporation can spread risk by having 1,000 employees. I can’t have 1,000 jobs. It’s just not equal on both sides.

I mean, “incredible freedom is equal on both sides,” in the only developed country where there’s no mandatory paid parental leave and basic healthcare access depends on employment? Spare me.

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#39

Post by IcyWindows »

Grombobulous wrote: post #38
Freedom2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a salient point people are missing. This incredible freedom is equal on both sides, just as how companies are able to spread that risk around with multiple employees, it is common these days to have multiple jobs just in case of a layoff or other notable event where your job is lost.

I am doing a double take reading your comment and the parent comment of yours. They’re just so wildly corporate-biased. I’m really not sure how we can conclude that the freedom is symmetrical. The fact that this story made national news says everything about how rare it is for an employer to win a case like this. In most cases you just get fired for any reason with no notice or off-ramp. The employer is just always c…

My comments are not "corporate-biased", they are business owner biased, which includes small businesses.

Employment is an free arrangement between two entities, not a modern day serfdom where the employers are now responsible for their serfs housing, food, etc.

Re: Software Engineer's Firing Ruled Illegal in a Rare Win for a Tech Worker

#40

Post by Grombobulous »

IcyWindows wrote: post #39
Grombobulous wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am doing a double take reading your comment and the parent comment of yours. They’re just so wildly corporate-biased. I’m really not sure how we can conclude that the freedom is symmetrical. The fact that this story made national news says everything about how rare it is for an employer to win a case like this. In most cases you just get fired for any reason with no notice or off-ramp. The employer is just always c…

My comments are not "corporate-biased", they are business owner biased, which includes small businesses. Employment is an free arrangement between two entities, not a modern day serfdom where the employers are now responsible for their serfs housing, food, etc.

We can’t exactly say this isn’t a serfdom in a country where the majority of people depend on employer benefits to get access to affordable healthcare.

Small businesses definitely feel a squeeze that bigger companies don’t, but they’re not saints to be put on a pedestal, either.

In that regard, small businesses get a ton of carve-outs. For example, they don’t have to pay healthcare benefits to full time employees. They are exempt from a slew of regulations targeted at larger businesses.

I don’t really have the same reverence for small businesses that a lot of people do. They’re just companies. Some are good, some are bad. When you work for one, there’s still a power distance between you and the owner.

I find that many small business owners are taking things way too personally. Their business is their baby and therefore any employee that doesn’t have a grindset like them is taking advantage of them.

The small businesses I respect are the ones that move toward employee ownership. Employees who own the company care about the company and don’t try to screw it over. Problem solved.

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