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Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

reuters.com

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Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#41

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #29
baq wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad you’re asking. https://cepr.org/publications/dp21577

“AI adoption raises homework scores by 18% and reduces completion time by 30%, but lowers monthly exam scores by 20% within six months. High-stakes entrance-exam scores fall by 18 and 24%, with the full penalty emerging only after about two years.” Yup. Short-term metrics juice. Actual comprehension and cognition falls. This seems to be the case across the board, including with adults. I’m genuinely optimistic that t…

I think AI could (and by some students probably already is) be used to help a student better understand the material, and faster than you could before. I still recall some parts of Physics taking a while to click, and often having to reread different sections of a textbook to try and understand the what and why behind something.

The biggest issue is a child has to want to do that, since they also could just ask the AI for the answer and then go back to playing video games. End of the day past age 13 or so I just don't see legislation making any difference, they'll find a way past any law blocking them from using AI. Like a lot of education it'll probably come down to parenting.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#42

Post by JumpCrisscross »

pawelmurias wrote: post #36
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Broadly speaking, the wealthier the parents the more restrictive device is in general in the household. This used to be a tech/non-tech line. It shifted to class sometime over the last ten years. The iPad kids are probably getting served slop. The AI-employed parents don’t have to directly police AI exposure because their kids’ device use is already controlled; at school, at extra-curriculars and at home.

The question is do the allow them to use their laptops to access llms. Like I assume before ai they where not allowing the kids to fry their brains doom scrolling but would allow programming. They weren't blocking all tech as they aren't raising subsistence farmers.

> I assume before ai they where not allowing the kids to fry their brains doom scrolling but would allow programming

Young kids don’t need to learn programming. They need to learn math, reading, spatial reasoning and social skills. (Among other things.)

The kids who were being taught Java in elementary school ten years ago aren’t particularly better off for it.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#43

Post by analog31 »

bpodgursky wrote: post #11
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's used for feedback and as a patient tutor it would accelerate their learning? We have mounting evidence AI hurts learning and cognition in many circumstances. I have not yet seen similar-quality evidence for it helping. Given that balance, restricting AI in education in the general population (while studying how to best deploy it) seems prudent. Especially given the Norwegian approach, which gradually introduce…

AI makes me worse at programming but helps me learn things much more quickly than reading textbooks. Both can be true.

Oddly enough, I never was able to learn things from textbooks, except in the context of a traditional classroom lecture course. I've also met maybe one or two people in my life who were able to learn the subjects of my college majors -- math and physics -- at any level from a textbook alone.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#44

Post by morkalork »

pawelmurias wrote: post #36
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Broadly speaking, the wealthier the parents the more restrictive device is in general in the household. This used to be a tech/non-tech line. It shifted to class sometime over the last ten years. The iPad kids are probably getting served slop. The AI-employed parents don’t have to directly police AI exposure because their kids’ device use is already controlled; at school, at extra-curriculars and at home.

The question is do the allow them to use their laptops to access llms. Like I assume before ai they where not allowing the kids to fry their brains doom scrolling but would allow programming. They weren't blocking all tech as they aren't raising subsistence farmers.

I figure they let them use Wikipedia, google etc. before though so I am curious where the line exists now.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#45

Post by LastTrain »

tadfisher wrote: post #27
replwoacause wrote: post #10

Good, wholeheartedly agree with this. Too bad US legislators are impotent.

US legislators have almost no say in how schools are run. The DoE is a husk, and states call the shots. In my state of Oregon, you will have wildly different curricula and standards depending on your district, because there's almost no state oversight either.

Yes, that is what impotent means.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#46

Post by JumpCrisscross »

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #41
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“AI adoption raises homework scores by 18% and reduces completion time by 30%, but lowers monthly exam scores by 20% within six months. High-stakes entrance-exam scores fall by 18 and 24%, with the full penalty emerging only after about two years.” Yup. Short-term metrics juice. Actual comprehension and cognition falls. This seems to be the case across the board, including with adults. I’m genuinely optimistic that t…

I think AI could (and by some students probably already is) be used to help a student better understand the material, and faster than you could before. I still recall some parts of Physics taking a while to click, and often having to reread different sections of a textbook to try and understand the what and why behind something. The biggest issue is a child has to want to do that, since they also could just ask the A…

> I think AI could (and by some students probably already is) be used to help a student better understand the material, and faster than you could before

I think so too. But we haven’t demonstrated we’ve found how, in kids or in adults.

> biggest issue is

We genuinely don’t know what the biggest issue is. We just know it doesn’t work. There is zero quality evidence for AI helping with learning or cognition in kids or adults. (Happy to be proven wrong. This is a fast-moving and big field.)

> they'll find a way past any law blocking them from using AI. Like a lot of education it'll probably come down to parenting

And community. Rich towns restrict devices in school, monitor use at home and thus will have less of an issue with AI exposure.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#47

Post by FloorEgg »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #39
FloorEgg wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually not really criticizing the decision so much the article and communications around it. If student learning outcomes are crashing and they desperately want to turn them around I understand why they would take dramatic action. Giving students uncontrolled access to generic LLMs probably would hurt outcomes. Research process is slow (IRB and all that) so they are dealing with data from years ago (models that…

> the reporting / nuance of "until we can research this better and figure out how to harness AI to improve outcomes and not undermine them" It’s balancing the irrationally exuberant narrative of the tech bros and AI pushers. You have to stop the bleeding before you can dress the wound to promote healing.

I don't think one balances a lack of nuance with more lack of nuance.

One avoids nuance for clicks or to propagate a narrative, sew division, distract, etc.

Again. As I said in both my comments, I'm not criticizing the ban, I'm criticizing the absence of any communication regarding a plan for researching potentially constructive uses. As a reader, I can't tell if the Norwegian leaders have no plan, or if they didn't communicate a plan, or if they did and Reuters chose not to include it in the article.

Not everything has to be a culture war. When we are talking about our children's future it would be cool to do so pragmatically.

Re: Norway imposes near ban on AI in elementary school

#49

Post by cryo32 »

I'm glad this is the case. It is the correct outcome.

I've heard students actually discussing that they will just use an LLM to shortcut work. I even have friends in their 50s who can barely think for themselves now without having to refer to "AI". And at least two of them are teachers.

Leading on from that, the staff are the most dangerous. My daughter has had generated exercises provided to her from multiple teachers, which are quite frankly entirely wrong. This was hilariously pointed out after I called a meeting with her mathematics teacher over it. They questioned my knowledge on the matter with the insane assumption that "AI is foolproof". I had to hit them with a clue stick then.

No one taught anything of value. No one learned anything of value. I am very worried we'll see a lost generation at some point rippling through the ages.

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