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Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

timesofisrael.com

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Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#41

Post by benj111 »

agensaequivocum wrote: post #33
pfannkuchen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much of Catholicism’s continued decline can be attributed to Vatican II? I never experienced the OG mass format, but it seems possibly less dumb than the modern “life lecture by a guy with no actual life experience”. It was in decline at the time and they were trying to save it, but I feel like a resurgence might have been more likely if they hadn’t neutered it.

The Tridentine Mass also has a homily. I like the Norvus Ordo done in a reverent manner. However, he prescripts of Vatican II were abused. Latin was supposed to be maintained generally. Music was supposed to be primarily Gregorian Chant. Communion on the hand was allowed because people were doing it and there was a desire to prevent those people being in sin while it was corrected. Instead it was allowed to spread an…

>moving Confirmation to before first Communion

Yes that will fix it.

My gf did confirmation because you get loads of presents, which is an easy sell to a child.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#42

Post by tguvot »

benj111 wrote: post #40
tguvot wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the only difference is in jobs that require experience with weapon. no other advantages

Not necessarily. At the very least an 18 year old who has been forced to fend for themselves is very different to an 18 year-old who still lives at home and has their mum do their washing. I know who I'd rather employ.

as somebody from Israel, I am talking reality. The only difference is in security related jobs. In other sectors nobody cares.

With regards to "fending for yourself", you should visit Israel some day. It's something that is mastered by age of 8

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#43

Post by benj111 »

mnky9800n wrote: post #15
OfSanguineFire wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yours is a frequent misunderstanding outside Israel. Ultra-Orthodox aren’t necessarily driving for violence against Muslims, and some Ultra-Orthodox groups are anti-Zionist. If you visit a West Bank settlement, you meet a lot of plain Orthodox, and also secular Israelis who are on the hawkish end of the spectrum. When I visited the West Bank, I was invited in by a family who immigrated from former USSR on grounds of…

Your statement has the same air of statements like "not every man is a sexist", yes but men in general are responsible for how men in general treat women. If Jews do not hold to account the extremist views that lead to murder and violence their brothers have then they are too blame as well.

So I'm personally responsible if you rape someone, based on some nebulous concept that men and only men are responsible for policing men.

And then you choose the phrase "not every man is a sexist" it seems pretty sexist to me to lay the blame purely on gender lines. So I'm I also responsible for you spouting this nonsense?

(Assuming you're a man, but I don't agree with your pov, so even if you're a woman, I'll still call you out)

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#44

Post by mdhen »

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #8
wkat4242 wrote: post #4

I see they are taking birth rates as a basis. That assumes that all the children they have will follow their parents' religion. I don't think that can be taken for granted. When I look at my own country it seems that people are less and less following their parents' religious choices. Most Catholics in Holland of my generation are only so in name. That say they are to please the parents, but they don't do anything ch…

Ultra-Orthodox Judaism is not like the American religious practices you mention, where faith is a matter of identity but only expressed on Sundays or whatever. Ultra-Orthodox Judaism is a total way of life, for men especially it determines your daily schedule every day of the week. The Torah study that many men engage in full-time gives them a distinct body of knowledge and perspective that makes them feel part of th…

They also marry young, like at 18/19 and then are expected to start having kids immediately. Once they have kids, they're stuck. If you want to leave the faith you better have your spouse on board or you will also be leaving your kids.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#45

Post by mdhen »

wkat4242 wrote: post #31
shrubble wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haredim society is more like the Amish, everything is tightly integrated. Far less Amish leave the church and community.

Ah I see. I don't know Amish. We don't really have those in Holland. We have Calvinists who are pretty strict by our standards, some even refuse to own a TV and they "close" their websites on Sundays. But young people live in a more open world. The ones that still adhere to such strict rules are a tiny minority.

Yeah thats not at all comparable to ultra orthodox judaism. They live in a bubble, and if you leave that bubble you are shunned by everyone you know.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#46

Post by beowa »

tguvot wrote: post #20
pcthrowaway wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of the community is that the women are often the breadwinners in addition to being homemakers and caretakers. I wonder if/how this will be sustainable as things become more and more expensive. Also, are the ultra-orthadox exempt from the military service that the rest of Israelis are required to enrol in? This seems like the only opportunity for ultra-orthadox Israelis to even be exposed to outside i…

>Also, are the ultra-orthadox exempt from the military service that the rest of Israelis are required to enrol in? This seems like the only opportunity for ultra-orthadox Israelis to even be exposed to outside influences both. they supposed to enroll to army but in case they study in yeshiva they typically avoid it, till they reach the age when army "looses" interest in you. it's one of the major pain points in israe…

> and supreme court strikes it down (because it violates equality clause)

Interesting. Why is it that Arab Israelis are not required to serve then? Wouldn’t that same equality clause apply?

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#47

Post by wkat4242 »

benj111 wrote: post #40
tguvot wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the only difference is in jobs that require experience with weapon. no other advantages

Not necessarily. At the very least an 18 year old who has been forced to fend for themselves is very different to an 18 year-old who still lives at home and has their mum do their washing. I know who I'd rather employ.

Fend for themselves? The military is the one place where one doesn't get to do that. Especially conscripts.

Following orders that are barked at them by usually less intelligent people that just happen to have some stripes on their shoulder is not fending for oneself. You get fed, sleep and eat on command, what fending is there to do?

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#48

Post by benj111 »

wkat4242 wrote: post #47
benj111 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. At the very least an 18 year old who has been forced to fend for themselves is very different to an 18 year-old who still lives at home and has their mum do their washing. I know who I'd rather employ.

Fend for themselves? The military is the one place where one doesn't get to do that. Especially conscripts. Following orders that are barked at them by usually less intelligent people that just happen to have some stripes on their shoulder is not fending for oneself. You get fed, sleep and eat on command, what fending is there to do?

I would say you're conflating freedom with fending for one's self.

A teenager living at home has a high degree of freedom, but they don't have to fend for themselves, that is, they don't have to take responsibility for doing all the things that need doing in life, they will find their dirty shirt left on the floor, magically cleaned, ironed and put back in the wardrobe.

Someone in the army has a low amount of freedom, but they have to take responsibility for all the things that need doing in life. If they don't make sure their shirt is washed, ironed, etc they will be held responsible.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#49

Post by wkat4242 »

benj111 wrote: post #48
wkat4242 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fend for themselves? The military is the one place where one doesn't get to do that. Especially conscripts. Following orders that are barked at them by usually less intelligent people that just happen to have some stripes on their shoulder is not fending for oneself. You get fed, sleep and eat on command, what fending is there to do?

I would say you're conflating freedom with fending for one's self. A teenager living at home has a high degree of freedom, but they don't have to fend for themselves, that is, they don't have to take responsibility for doing all the things that need doing in life, they will find their dirty shirt left on the floor, magically cleaned, ironed and put back in the wardrobe. Someone in the army has a low amount of freedom…

But the military have a laundry service, cooking service etc. Everything is still done for them. Except the things they are ordered to do. Throwing your shirts in the laundry is not really different from home.

Moving into your own place for the first time is much more like fending for yourself. Having to learn to cook, wash, manage your finances. Living independently and having to live with your mistakes, not just being told off for them by a superior. And really, things that actually matter, not something stupid like not having a starched shirt in the morning. The real world no longer cares about such superficial matters.

The only thing the military is really good at teaching is obedience but at the expense of suppressing critical thought and creativity. If I were an employer I'd like my employees to tell me if they disagree and not blindly follow orders.

PS: Yes my aversion to the military is pretty clear sorry.

Re: Nearly 1 in 4 Israelis will be ultra-Orthodox by 2050, study says

#50

Post by tguvot »

beowa wrote: post #46
tguvot wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Also, are the ultra-orthadox exempt from the military service that the rest of Israelis are required to enrol in? This seems like the only opportunity for ultra-orthadox Israelis to even be exposed to outside influences both. they supposed to enroll to army but in case they study in yeshiva they typically avoid it, till they reach the age when army "looses" interest in you. it's one of the major pain points in israe…

> and supreme court strikes it down (because it violates equality clause) Interesting. Why is it that Arab Israelis are not required to serve then? Wouldn’t that same equality clause apply?

good point. no idea. druze and beduins serve. arabs are excluded from draft. i guess nobody ever tried to challenge this in a court.

anecdotally, in past decades some arabs tend to volunteer to army/alternative service

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